Doc really summed it up perfectly well on the mechanical end of things there.

But I have a few comments regarding game "ethics" as it seems it's producing itself into.

um...so don't change it in YOUR game.

I could conversly say the following:
The fact that it is in the book doesn't mean it should be in the book.
;)
Kinda why they bothered to tell us they think it's cool if we change their rules.

This, I'm afraid, has nothing to do with the topic at all. You have begun to argue whether HOUSE RULES should be used at all and on what ground they should be used.
We aren't talking about that here. I think it's pretty obvious that Gilthanis is pro-house rules.

I think you said it best. "Therefore in my judgement".
That means when it's your game it's your decision.
When it's not your game, it's not your decision.
All you can do is help make it balance out.

SR3, p38: The Abstract Nature Of The Rules: "These rules are not meant to be a direct copy of how things really work. They can't be. We try to approximate conditions and situations in reality as much as possible, but that can only go so far..."

tjn: That quote is what you are saying

SR3, p38: The Abstract Nature Of The Rules: "(BUT)...If you come up with a game mechanic that you think works better--go for it!"

tjn: that's what I'm saying...and so did they.

*shakes head* look. Don't try to be the daddy for Gilthanis' GMing. I'm sure he can make those decisions about newbies quite capably without your concern.
If you personally are worried about it...like I said.
Don't use the rule.

Thanks everyone for bringing us back to the real topic. Magic and how it really works (I snicker every time someone says that) will always be a debate because of the wide variety of magics in the game. Look at the Psionics for crying out loud. Like it was mentioned before. I am looking for reasons that this could be unbalancing. The +4 target number is pretty nasty as it stands. Centering is the one thing that could possibly reduce this, but since a situation that this could be beneficial would be so rare that it wouldn't be offsetting. (please refer to previous Karma expenditures example)

Now on the THEORETICAL idea of the magic. IMOO I would have to say that all Magi at the beginning have to start pure willpower. You don't understand sorcery your first time dabbling and therefore are "freeballing" it to acquire the knowledge needed for a skill of one. After that it would make since to stand on the foundation you've built. But, most people would agree that if you have a low skill that trading off a higher target number (an easy chance at failing the spell which is the true goal) to avoid a total and utter botch (always a secondary or thirdary... effect of failing) is a valid choice.

So lets come up with some ways this could POSSIBLY be offsetting. Shall we?

Actually...*snicker*...I was thinking...this is potentially evil really.
If a character with Phsyonics mentally sent an image to a mage, who doesn't have the Formula fresh/or at all in their mind, of a spell Formula they "happened" (for some odd ass reason) to know the image of...hehe.... :grinbig:

Just a random screwball that could be fun to pluck at with the defaulting mage concepts...but would be more like a temporary skill rating = to some value of relation to the Physonics ability to send and the Mages ability to cast mixed together. Some high tax to the Phsyonic character would be the result I think.

(opens can-o-worms and runs)

To sum up the results of what we debated a result of...

Maybe in your game, but not in mine. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that spellcasters (and conjurers) have to actually know how to manipulate mana, which is well-represented by the appropriate skills and the requirement of foreknowledge of the specific spell required. I don't see the need to change this, but YMMV.

Oh yeah...thanks for reminding me Fortune..

I'm not saying knowledge of the spell is absent. The formula should be known. Just having a skill in it should be treated like EVERY other skill in the game. Defaulting to the Attribute for whatever reason should be allowed. You could totally learn the spell using the attribute but only with a +4 target number which is tremendous when trying to learn spells. Learning a force 6 would be target number 16. The debate is whether the skill MUST be present to even be capable of casting or conjuring and the idea that you can do anything without skills by defaulting to an attribute except for sorcery and conjuring is kind of funky. Everyone implying the idea of casting a specific spell (let's say manabolt) without learning the formula is absurd. But, that doesn't mean you don't have the ability to manipulate the energies without using a different approach. This is how we get different traditions, formulas, and techniques.

I wasn't trying to be a dick. I was merely expressing my opinion on the matter. :)

well...then how can we resolve this?

1) You want a default.
2) A (census??) answer on whether you can cast a spell without the skill (to which I will always say, "no, the book says you can't"...but should you be able to...sure, with the right rules)
3) You want a "randomizer(??)" to make it so you can't choose the spell you will cast un-skilled?
4) And doc suggested the Pool change for balance.

[edit]Don't worry Fortune, I knew you weren't being a dick...you're Fortune!! I was actually being serious when I said thanks, cause if you read back...there's ALOT of opinion on whether this rule concept needs to exit, but really VERY little on the rule itself...and I didn't want to really spark that opinion "should it, shouldn't it be used" conversation all over again. I can understand how you would voice your opinion because I had nothing stating the debate on it prior to your post, hence the "thank you"[/edit]

What's there to resolve? Those against it are against it on general principal, misguided as that principal is. :P

point number 2 and 3

Gilthanis added to the overall request's clearity of desire in his post above...2 and 3 are really almost a question of double checking to him from me on that.

Which, of course, opens up the can of worms:

Can mundanes cast spells?

Since defaulting to Willpower is allowable and knowledge of spell design is not limited to Awakened only (this is Canon), mundanes can now cast spells using the above House Rule. Their Magic is 0, so they will always suffer physical drain but they can cast spells.

no. We are talking about Skill. Not Magic rating.
Just because you Default to Will doesn't mean that you bypass the pre-requisit of needing at least 1 Magic point.

I feel the skill should be there for any professional magi with spellcasting or conjuring (whichever you want to default). But, the character could just slap a skill of 1 on there and start defaulting away to their hearts desire. I am looking more towards if there would be any pimpage issues with it in some way. Kinda like what I brought up earlier with the spell defense scenario. I agree spell defense should be affected by the defaulting and vice versa, but not eliminated altogether. Now with that mentioned... is there any other concerns? I have heard people mention not allowing Centering to eliminate penalties. I could go either way on that. What else could be effected or used to utilize the defaulting?

ok...

Default to Will (CHECK)
Cannot apply Spell Pool to spell defense without applying any Sorcery dice (CHECK)

Inability to choose exact spell but does cast something (big void there)

I would say something like this for the caster not being able to claim "I'm defaulting mana bolt!"

The Defaulting Caster may claim the "style" or "class" of the spell they are trying to cast, but the specific spell is determined by the GM.

Does that work?? yes? no? (totally out of my ass on that one)

No. That's not a can of worms, that's just being stupid. Sorcery still requires a Magic of 1 (whether you're defaulting or not), a tradition, and all the other things it's always required. You might as well say that all mundanes can use astral perception since it uses Intelligence.

Considering that you'd need Centering 16 (and thus Artistic Skill 16, too), as mentioned way up above to reliably have any chance of doing (and assuming your TN was always a simple one at 4), that's a non-issue.

Now, now Doc. Take it easy. I know it's been a rough thread. :P

Bah.

Tell you what, those opposed to the ideas of defaulting to Willpower because it represents a lack of "knowledge" for how to cast a spell (despite the spell formula giving you all the instructions you need -- we'll continue to ignore that since it's a blatant bit of a proof contrary to your point of view), how about defaulting to Magic Background?

*lol*

so does this work?

The Defaulting Caster may claim the "style" or "class" of the spell they are trying to cast, but the specific spell is determined by the GM.

???????

Did you mean Defaulting to "Magic" or Magic Background the Knowledge Skill?

Nah, I don't care for that at all. Knowing the spell's formula is a *must* for voluntary spellcasting.

If you want to work on including a whole new mechanic for spontaneous magic... that's something I'd rather not help with. Way too big and a massive change to the entire system (both mechanically and balance-wise).

Knowledge "with a capital K." They claim that you have to "know" how to work magic. Magic Background includes that knowledge. And it's actual knowledge to boot.

Stumps... I'm not saying random spells or random effects. I'm saying learn the formula (not random), if someone wants to be anal and require a sorcery skill (learn at least skill 1 and then default as you wish but I don't think it would be necessary). The whole random stuff came up while everyone else was discussing HOW people first spike/realise they have magic.

Toturi... you are taking the concept way too far on the idea to just let everyone have the ability. It is restricted to those who have a Magic Attribute as well. But, keep in mind the whole Earthdawn game too. IF you use it as part of the SR universe, then eventually EVERYONE will have access to it. The mana levels are just too low right now for some. Call it genetic supremecy or whatever floats your boat.

Ok, I only threw that out there cause Gilthanis asked for it...but I really wasn't looking for that to make alot of sense cause I look at Physical Adpets as being magicians who haven't quite got their spell casting finited.
A good amount of their powers are rather "scattery" and not direct.
"Magical" punches, etc...