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> Astral Melee & Dual Natured Beings, Part 2.b of the Sorcery Series Threads
Stumps
post Oct 30 2004, 05:23 AM
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SR3, Astral Combat Tests, p 174:
"Dual beings must move on both planes together, including spirits in the physical form. They cannot be in one place in the physical world and another in the astral space. Thus, they are limited to their physical rate of speed and Initiative."

This seems odd. It actually looks like a limitation in a heavy way.

What Makes Sense:
I understand the need for the limitation of distance (can't go to Astral Seattle while being in Physical London.) because the Dual Nature of these beings is that they are linked in a hard-line kind of way between their Astral and their Physical.

What Isn't Making Sense:
Why is it that these beings are being slowed down in the Astral Space?(there's more to this question than this, but I need more info to ask it properly.)

Questions That I Can't Find Answers To (please give at least a rough guess as to the section that supports you answer to this question):
Are Dual Beings able to apply skills in both the Astral and the Physical plane, similar to their confinement of Physical walls keeping them from going somewhere Astraly? (basically, can they chase someone in the Astral plane and open a door in the Physical plane to keep going through the Physical wall...are they even aware of that Physical wall?)

If someone could actually just point to the beefy area of whatever book (SR3/MitS) that discusses their abilities and non-abilities that would be great.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 30 2004, 05:33 AM
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They are being slowed down because their meat and astral forms still occupy the same analagous space, and thus the astral is indirectly forced to obey the laws of physics.

~J
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Stumps
post Oct 30 2004, 05:37 AM
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I understand that...the thing is...I need more info on them to answer all of my questions but I can't seem to find the main area of either SR3 or MitS that discusses them as a rule.
That's what I need. I can't really pose any solid questions or arguments without knowing that section and reading it's content first.
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Glyph
post Oct 30 2004, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE (Stumps)
Questions That I Can't Find Answers To (please give at least a rough guess as to the section that supports you answer to this question):
Are Dual Beings able to apply skills in both the Astral and the Physical plane, similar to their confinement of Physical walls keeping them from going somewhere Astraly? (basically, can they chase someone in the Astral plane and open a door in the Physical plane to keep going through the Physical wall...are they even aware of that Physical wall?)

If someone could actually just point to the beefy area of whatever book (SR3/MitS) that discusses their abilities and non-abilities that would be great.

pg. 182 in the BBB, under Astral Spellcasting:

"An astrally perceiving spellcaster can cast a spell at anything physical or astral that he can see with his normal vision or astral perception."

To me, this implies that extending your perceptions into the astral plane does NOT "shut off" your normal vision. So in your example, a dual-natured being pursuing an astral form would indeed be able to open a physical door in the course of the pursuit. But considering how fast astral forms can move, trying to chase one down in your physical body is likely to be an exercise in futility.
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RedmondLarry
post Oct 30 2004, 06:40 AM
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Stumps, I think these are the words you need to hear:

A spirit in astral space basically moves and and is limited like an Astral Projecting magician. It's quick in movement and in action, and it easily passes through mundane walls and living people.

A materialized spirit moves and is limited like an Astral Perceiving magician. It sees and hears and interacts with the physical world. It sees physical things, like walls and doors. It can't see through a wall. It can pick up a penny.

Consider a dual being to simply be a regular physical entity that can see and interact with the astral plane AND the physical plane, while being on the physical plane. All their initiative, movement, pools, etc. are the ones they use in the physical world. Look up Astral Perception starting on page 171 of SR3, for all rules for a magician who is looking at the astral plane. Such a magician is a dual being. Any spirit that materializes in the physical world will have a solid material presence and will be limited by what their material presence can do and where it can go, just like a dual-natured (astral perceiving) magician is still limited by his Meat Body.

Yes, being dual natured IS a huge penalty for something that is normally made of quickness and light (i.e. a spirit). No wonder bound Spirits won't materialize unless they are commanded to.

For a materialized spirit to go through a wall he can (a) walk through a door, (b) break through the wall, ( c) dematerialize and pass astrally through the wall in order to rematerialize on the far side, (d) dematerialize and return to his native plane to wait for his summoner to call him from the other side. There may be more, but this is what comes to mind. A dual-natured magician can only do (a) or (b) in order to physically be on the other side, as an astral magician can't materialize (although he can manifest to talk to people, dogs, and plants). (Well, he can talk to cats too, but they don't listen.)

So, read up on Astral Perception. Look up and learn the difference between Materialization (Spirit power, page 264), and Manifestation (becoming ghostly visible and audible on the physical plane in order to talk to a physical living being, SR3 page 173). Look up Physical Form for spirits, page 188.
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Stumps
post Oct 30 2004, 07:52 AM
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Ok, read all that.
Thank you both very much for the road signs.

So far I'm reading that there is no problem with this potential:
A Duel being (we'll say an Adept with Astral Perception) fighting in Astral Combat in the Astral and fighting in Unarmed Combat in the Physical at the same time within the limits of their same Initiative(not getting an initiative for each plane, but using the same one for both and choosing to act on one or the other over the course of their passes.)
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