There's a reason this is only "sort of" a recruitment thread. I'm proposing the running of a SR4 game based around a Seattle street gang. However, such a broad concept is difficult to pin down since I want the players (or potential players, or just interested folks) to have a hand in creating the gang and its environment.

To that end, I've put together a Wiki where we put together things as they come of age. While we have the Wiki, I expect a large amount of discussion to actually occur in this thread. The Wiki is simply a good way to spread out the work of putting it all together.

A short FAQ:

You're using a Wiki to discuss the gang, does this mean you're not running the game on this forum?

No. I'll be running the game in the traditional fashion on this board. The Wiki is simply a powerful tool to use for a group to write a shared story.

Is this game going to be different from other SR games?

It will definitely not be a typical "group goes and gets a run from a Johnson, goes on run, collects pay" type game. For one thing, it'll be much more driven by the players. This is both an empowering and potentially destructive thing as the GM is not the one mainly responsible for the pace of the game. The GM will, of course, be throwing in events (like a rival gang beating up someone, NPCs hassling PCs, etc.) to create situations and combats, but other things will be entirely in the hands of the players to initiate.

I'm here first, does that mean I get to play?

Hold on there, there are going to be some differences between this and a regular game. For one thing, there isn't going to be a hard cap on the number of players. Gangs are larger than shadowrunner teams and the individual gangers are weaker. Thus, it's easier to have ten gangers playing than it would be to have seven shadowrunners. However, the first few days of discussion are likely to set a strong course for the gang, so the earlier you jump in the better.

Can I send you a character?

It's still too early for that. Feel free to take a look at the draft character creation rules on the Wiki (or over in the SR4 forum), but keep in mind that those are draft rules. We'll get to that point eventually.

An Overview of the Gang

The following questions appear on the gang overview page and I'm placing them here to get things started. These are the first things we'll need to tackle, but they aren't the only things.

Where is the gang based?

There are gangs all over Seattle. Anywhere from downtown to the depths of the Barrens. Where this particular gang is located will determine a lot about the ways in which it can behave. The Seattle sourcebooks can be a big help, along with this map.

What is the gang's focus?

Simply staying alive in a Z-Zone, getting rich off BTLs, and defending a neighborhood are all possibilities for the primary focus of a street gang. That doesn't mean that the gang can't delve into other legal and illegal activities, as well, but the main purpose is important.

How big is the gang?

Are there ten members or thirty? Somewhere in between? Too few or too many is a problem.

What is the racial composition of the gang?

Certain gangs are made up of humans. Others are made up of elves or orks or trolls or all three. There are even a few dwarven gangs around. The racial composiiton of the gang is an important question.

What is the gang's relationship with the residents of its territory?

Is the gang on good terms with the local populace, or is it feared? How does the gang treat the regular, law-abiding citizens in its territory?

I'm not sure whether you wanted hte discussion to take place here, or by editing the Wiki. o.O

I assume here, for sanity's sake. :-D

Both, really. We should probably do most of the talking here and then as decisions are made move it over to the Wiki. I'm using the Wiki so I don't have to be the one to edit every last thing, as I'm sure I'll miss some things and others will get changed after they've initially been settled.

We probably don't need to use the actual discussion feature of the Wiki, using this thread instead.

Discussion is going to revolve around what kind of gang and focus to play?

Is the gang a bunch of japanese american yakuza biker wannabes, aka Neon Blades.
Local protection troll street gang.
Underground Ork militant black panthers.
Thrill seeking corp teen rigger street racers.
Dwarven technomancer elite AR Shooter competition team.
Elven street mimes (shudder)
Theme gangs
- The Gilligans, Play a character from Gilligans Island
- The Poohs, Play Tigger or Eeyore (Donkey prosthetic is popular...)

Makes me think we need a poll at some point.

As said in the other thread, I would be interested. :)

I'd say one of the less secure regions, where security is sparse to non-existant (not quite a Z-Zone, but only one step up from there (D?)).

How about some protection money, maybe some smuggling activity, raids into other territories to steal stuff, and so on.

I think 10 is a little small... 20 sounds like a good number.

A mix of all? Not all gangs are based on a certain race. :)

Well... of course the residents don't like to be 'protected' by a gang, but then again, there is little else in terms of security and at least the gangers are good enough to actually do something (or try ;)), when there is a need for it. There's a bit of respect, but mostly it's just a matter of necessity.

Bye
Thanee

I'm not going to make any hard suggestions, but I'm going to suggest the following:

• Base the gang outside the barrens.
• Make the gang relatively small (15-20 members).
• Give the gang a small, well defined territory (about 1-4 city blocks)
• Have more than one racial option (human + two or three others tends to work)
• Make the theme at least somewhat serious.
• Allow for more than one general concept (gogang might be okay, wizgang probably not)

SR really isn't as much about gangs as CP2020 was. I dug out my old book and thought I'd share the bit on boostergangs in the back. The types of gangs in the book were:

• Extended family gang
• Skinheads
• Chromatic metal gang (like a rock cult, but more violent)
• Self defense gang
• Posergang (specific look)
• Combat gang
• Party gang
• Cultie gang

I would love to play a Dwarven Technomancer ganger, that would be awesome. Especially one who was at the power level you're talking about, as that would end up with a character who was seriously like 11 years old. Short children, does it get any better than that? I hope not.

But on a more constructive note: there are lots of possible theme gangs that don't involve particular TV shows:

- The Pack. Members get dog-related modifications, beginning with cybernetic nose modifications and moving on to full skull replacement.

- The Hawaiians. Members listen to a lot of surf music and wear colorful shirts. Examples are made by killing high-profile targets with poisonous tropical fish.

- The Piggies. Members ride around on Hogs and wear padded pink outfits. Tusks are encouraged, as is dirtiness.

But of course, BTL selling is just good times. That way the gang could have their own crappy street doc who could barely implant SimModules into people so that they could slot their BTLs without getting nanotrodes each time...

-Frank

A few suggestions/thoughts:

Gang Based: Redmond Barrens - There are lots of gangs in the area doing all sorts of different things, so it gives a lot of flexibility in determining what the focus of the gang is, as well as the type. Potential storylines and hooks will be very easy to come by with all the other gangs in the area. Finally, Redmond is diverse enough that it runs from I believe C or even B in some areas down to Z, so again, with the except of the rich/higher-end gang themes, there is a lot of inherent flexibility into what the gang could be created to be.

Gang Focus: Growing and establishing a solid turf. See Gang Size for additional notes. This gives players a hand in the creation of the gang through role-playing . They are literally starting from the ground up, and instead of making the decisions regarding 'in-game' elements such as methods of operation, rituals, initiations, enemies, allies, stance towards residents, etc, in the OOC thread, all those things could be role-played out.

If the game is focused on the ups and downs in the life of a ganger, it seems a reasonable thing to start from the beginning of that life, and through play the characters will grow and evolve from their first baby steps as a ganger into a hardened lifer.

Furthermore, this helps immerse the players in the gang as they create the culture of the gang from the ground up, and creates a more tangible sense of the gang culture as they grow and develop.

One possibility would be to start the game with the players having just recently decided they will form a gang. They could have the basic gang focus, rituals, initiations, etc, but how they go about establishing their turf, recruiting members, etc. could then be some of the early things that are played out.

Gang Size: Small, just starting out, possibly 10-15 members or so, depending on the number of PCs? Again, this gives players the opportunity to grow the gang and develop it through the gang instead of starting with a preestablished base.

Racial Composition: Any, to accomodate the most number of players

Gang's Relationship to residents: Something that could be defined throughout play, especially if they start from the ground up.

Thoughts?

So what's the basic process?

Build a Gang, players build PC to fit?
Build gangers PC, build a Gang to fit?

Either way is fun and fine with me, but I think at some point you need to be able to say, "Here's the Gang, all PC need to fit this from now on."

I'm interested TG.

I like the idea of this group founding a gang. Maybe as a splinter of another gang or focused around a strong NPC.

I could be interested in this... indeed

I'm interested, if I have the time.
I'm all for the getting the gang started from the ground up and then just trying to keep the gang a live and running.

I'd like all races to be in the gang. Combat does not need to be the main focus of the gang, but there should be some PCs that don't suck in combat.


Thyme...

Oooh, I've been waiting to be able to play an online game. I'm interested, but I don't know how to play SR4; I hope that won't be an insurmountable problem.

It's nice to be all-inclusive from a race stand-point (and easier from a meta-game standpoint to get people intersted in playing because they can make anything), but I think playing up racial tensions is an important part of a street-level gang.

That said, if part of the gang's core concept is inclusion, that could work. Though it's awful warm and fuzzy for hard-bitten gansters. :)

I would also like to play, but I don't know that much about gangs IRL.
I'll post more of my ideas tomarrow, but one thing I think we should do is try our best to keep the gang open to allowing as many PC race/archtype combinations as possible.

I mean, if we voted to play a troll-only gang, that sorts of nixes half-a-dozen ideas I've already had this morning. plus eats up a lot of valuable build-points.

... course I hate trolls. :-) Wouldn't be adverse to voting in a no-troll gang. :-D Maybe a humanis human-only gang?

Starting scenario: PC are sitting around the 'hood jawing about the latest adventures of Kombat Karl when a tractor trailer combo full of bikes and cars heading for the scrap heap breaks down on the street.

The truck driver can't get the repair truck to come out, and he heads off for lunch around the corner...

Instant neighborhood go/car gang! Hunt for replacement parts to get your street machine fixed! Challenge the rival gangs in the Friday Night Street races! Where do we get nuyen for gas?

As most gangs are started by people in their early teens, if we were really playing characters starting a brand new gang rather than aspirants working their way up an established gang - then characters should probably be pretty young. 16 year old characters are old by this measure.

You become an "OG" at age 20, and people who are still gang members at 30 are looked at with pity even by other gang members.

-Frank

Damn, I just looked at the chargen rules and realized I know absolutely jack and squat about SR4 chargen. I don't want to ask someone to make my character for me, but I might have to end up doing that...


Anyway, everything I learned about gangs I learned from the urban evening news and manga. And, well, living in cities. And manga clearly knows all about urban crime because Japan is such a dangerous place to live. Manga even trumps living in NYC and New Orleans.

So clearly being in a gang is all about long, sweaty silences in which we stare at each other before beating on each other with improbable martial arts, bokken, and giant chains.

I really really think that having a single dominant race is important, but have a couple of ideas for how to get people on board who don't agree.

This is just me spitballing... it's wacky, I know. And most people seem to be leaning towards 'any race' direction, but I'm angling.

First, boost CP to 310.

And add a required negative quality for anyone wanting to be a race outside the dominant race of the group (whatever we decide that is):

Outsider (10): You are not the same race as your gang, but for some reason they have accepted you. There's still tension, but you're part of the group now. For good or ill.

So, basically, if you go along with the pack you have 10 extra BP to spend. I just think a mish-mash of races would be strange and implausible. They're struggling to survive, looking a lot alike is a good way to start IMO.

YES! A ganger game! the most fun time in the SR world. I'd love to play no matter the theme.

Preferred ideas:
Dwarven Chop-shop gang, steals cars, boosts cars, smuggling runs, and makes "special" customizations for "special" customers.
Bunch of young dwarfs naturally in love with cars, boats, bikes, planes, and, of course, drones, get their own garage and startup their own chop-shop gang.

Ork and troll Street Gang "The Enforcers" - protection rackets, BTL selling, the modern "Goblinized Businessman."
Bunch of young orks and trolls decide to carve a name for themselves by taking over their own territory in the barrens.

These would be my favorites, but I'm up for anything.
Also, like to note: GREAT IDEA ES_Sparky, that would be an awesome fix for those that want to play other races.

I love gang vs gang interactions, and also intergang politics. I'm so in, and willing to play anything.

Personally, I dislike any real "racial" motifs, because, well I'm American, I'm fairly dim-witted at Role playing a yakuza gang or the like. But I'm in for ANYTHING!

I used to play in the Bleeding Edge gang game that was held here ages ago... Haven't played SR4 yet, so I'd be down for this if you'd be willing to take me on.

I'm definitely interested in this too.

Dunno too much about ideas of my own, but i do really like the idea of starting off pretty much from scratch, trying to establish turf and whatnot. probably a splinter off some gang would be the most workable solution (possibly even a gang from another city forming a branch in seattle).

i would go for a more low security zone than anything, personally, but anything is ok really.

Oh dear. Well, time to throw down some statistics then:

* The median age for joining a gang is 14.
* The average age of all gang members is 16.
* The average age for a first arrest of a gang member is 14.
* The most common arrests during the first 2 years are property offenses (burglary, vandalism, etc.), the most common arrests during the next 2 years are drug-related, and the most common arrests after that are for violent crime.

And some generically horrifying facts:

* The preffered gang initiation to a Bloods-affiliated gang is participation in the "gang-bang" of a local girl. This highly illegal and poorly regarded activity cuts the prospective member off from other perceived avenues of social interaction and binds him more tightly to the gang.

* Gang member drug dealers report approximate 50% higher earnings than do non-affiliated drug dealing youths their own age.

* Attrition rate for gang members is often as high as 8% over a ten-year gang membership.

* 75% of gang members who dealt drugs reported that they would not give up selling drugs for less than $17 per hour.

---

So life as a gangster is:

Nasty.
Venal.
Short.
Profittable.

And a typical gang member is:

Scared.
Confused.
Violent.
Fifteen years old.

-Frank

TG, I could be down for this.

I am sort of in agreement with Sparky too. Being all of the same race simply makes sense. At least limiting the race does.

What about an Elven/Dwarven gang? A bunch of youths that can't make it on their own, are shunned by the richer or more secluded of their races, and aren't allowed in the other more brutal enforcer troll/ork gangs.

I personally would be up for any race combination, but I do think that limited or single is best.

I don't know a ton about the different areas, but it would have to be one that provided flexibility enough to be a gang and not just a full time jail bird or constantly running from the Star.

I like the idea of racing as a past time. I think the purpose should be a healthy mix of survival and fun. If fun is getting wasted at 9am and robbing a store...so be it.

Dealing in drugs is probably the best way to make money. By best, I mean easiest.

There's some interesting data on the money side of drug dealing in the book Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything ( an interesting read).

The idea in a capsule is that most street level drug dealers made minimum wage or less, were highly competitive and very likely to end up dead. The only guys making good money were the ones on top, running the show at a high level (the level the street guys were trying to get to). So these kids are risking their lives to make minimum wage.

I have no way of knowing how this maps for gangs across the nation. IIRC this was for a particular gang in Chicago (maybe it was LA) that had one up-and-comer who was keeping detailed books on the drug operation. Who got paid what and how often for what volume. That sort of thing.



Wow... teenagers... young ones. I know I didn't have any 300BP when I was 14. :P

I also had a random thought that we could build our gangers around a certain positive or negative quality (or one of each that cancel eachother out?) and build a backstory around that. Something that would unify us by mechanics as well as shared history.

Like, say...
Positive Qualities:

-Animal Empathy for The Pack (ala FrankTrollman's suggestion)
-Double-Jointed for the Houdinis (Burglary oriented group)
-Guts for a go-gang
-High Pain Tolerance for the Bleeders (can't pass out when you get beat in)
-Home Ground for any gang. What gang doesn't want this?
-Lucky for a gang with more BPs lying around than they know what to do with
-Quick Healer, Toughness, Will to Live...

There's really not a quality that we couldn't spin into an interesting hook for the gang. And it wouldn't HAVE to be a requirement, but if most folks had it, we'd get a rep for it, and if you didn't... well...

Of course, if that quality is negative, that might be a good thing. These end up sounding really fun and funny, but maybe not what we want.

Negative Qualities:
-Bad Luck for The Losers
-Combat Paralysis for The Twitchers
-Gremlins for The Crash (go gang)
-Incompetent (Firearms) for Richochets, Dodgers or perhaps for their own safety, the Blades :)
-Incompetent (Groundcraft) for The Crash (go gang)
-Spirit Bane (Spirits of Man) for the Ancestors (irony)

Anyway... just spinning thoughts.



PS - I'll help out anyone that needs it for SR4 chargen, though I may need help with that if there are a bunch.