Heck, even Special Machinery is a catch-all for "GM-Invented Rules."

Poison-delivery, you give them a needle that injects venom. No rules needed, just like a nurse doesn't need rules to give you a shot.

Sure, no reason their pilot 3 brain wouldn't be able to recognize a weak spot on a vehicle. I mean, first off it could just have a datasoft of all vehicles produced and their weak spots, and second, even a pilot 3 has some deductive ability, it could look at a vehicle and figure out the spots that are likely to be weak (represented by its attack roll)

And against a metahuman, if we're talking about Joe Average, we're looking at 3 reaction, with 0 melee skill, which mean 1 die on defense against the drone's 7 dice. 3DV against 3 body means 2 damage on average, which is fairly decent.

How do you get 1 die, incidentally? Personally, I'd give the +1 AP just for being clothed at all, but that's not even necessary. It's 3 against 7 (DV 2), and 4 to resist (maybe 1 box). And then, as an insect-sized Body 1 drone, it dies as soon as it's instantly swatted (because it's stuck to the skin). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now, make it 'Joe Street'. Reaction 3, Body 3, Unarmed or Dodge 1, and 4 Impact armor. 4 against 7 (same), and DV 2 against 8. No one's talking about troll tanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The attack roll is hitting a target, not deducing weak spots. And you just invented the rule that they have a 'weak spot datasoft'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) See?

Should I create a RL thread linked to this one and title it "Info Sortilage" along with all the RL cyber threads we've got going?

Back to the drones topic, as I mentioned in another, even for a non-rigger, a doberman with LMG and 2 rotodrones with SMGs and good autosofts is a good start and great for both helping the character in combat and working as a bit of overt surveillance. For more covert surveillance, use some of the smaller drones, mini and micro.

Or ubiquitous, as in a MCT-Nissan Roto Drone or Ferret.

0 unarmed/dodge skill on a reaction + unarmed/dodge test, 0 skill is pure stat and -2 penalty, meaning 1 die on defense. And armored clothing provides no impact AP, so even if you want the +1 to apply to lack of armor, it is still only 4 dice on DV 3, so about 2 damage like I said. And thanks to drones being immune to stun damage, a human (or even a troll) can't swat it for any amount of damage unless they have killing hands or bone augmentation of some kind.

Okay, so it does 1 damage about 1/3rd of the time. Get a swarm of 10-20 of them and they are a serious threat. Like I said, fluff is often designed around joe average, not joe street. It isn't like they are suggested to go after armored human targets. And basically the entire entry keeps talking about them being used in swarms. Yeah, one alone isn't much of a threat, but numbers is where their advantage lies, especially if they can take advantage of tacsoft (not many sensor channels, but even an extra die could be helpful)

If attack roll was simply hitting, and not attempting to hit a weak/vulnerable spot, then net hits wouldn't cause extra damage, because it isn't like you're hitting them somewhere that it hurts more, right? And I didn't invent a rule about a weak spot datasoft, I'm just providing alternates since you seem to like to ignore the things that are already presented in the game and things that simply don't need crunch.

@sleep Feel free (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Uh oh, it's becoming multi-layered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There is no way that you actually have a lower melee defense test than ranged, from a 'default' penalty. The universe would explode. And again, that's assuming that someone with zero skill is a relevant example.

They have about 1 sensor channel, and how many is a swarm? 25000¥? 50000¥ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Even having a listed 0 in Impact should count as something to add that +1 to. No one is an unarmored target, so it's silly to even talk about it.

Actually, one sentence of the whole entry talks about swarms. Is that 'basically the entire entry'?

Yes, you did invent the datasoft. The entry says nothing about a database of weak spots; you're inventing the rule that they have them. There's nothing wrong with that, but my point is that the HK requires many different fill-in-the-blanks rulings to actually do what the fluff claims it can do.

There is no logical reason for net hits to cause extra damage and you know it. It's a purely crunch thing. A minute ago, you were arguing that an attached HK would get increased DV from an unopposed attack roll: what weak spot could it be hitting (or failing to hit) then? It's attached, probably to an armor plate.

Oops. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) I was thinking of Body 0 drones, not Body 1. As long as we're inventing rules (because it's unavoidable), I still think anyone could slap their hand over the little bugger and squeeze, possibly smack it against a hard surface. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So: if you do invent the many minor rules necessary for the HK to function, it can sorta pull some of things the fluff claims.

Oh? Why is that? Does it say somewhere in the rules (since you're so fixated on a rule for everything) that there is no default penalty for melee combat defense?

About 1 sensor channel, as in actually 2 sensor channels?

I conceded a 0 impact armor as adding the +1, though it seems silly as the entire point of most things with + AP on them is that they should be used against unarmored targets.

[edit]As for the swarm, it is an imprecise number. I don't see why you feel a need to quantify it.[/edit]

Given that it is talking about their use on targets larger than themselves, yes it is for any purpose in which we are talking about a target larger than a dragonfly.
Sure, I did invent the datasoft, but only as a possibility, not as a fact. The actual fact is that I don't know how it works, or why it works, just that it works. Kind of like I don't know how or why many sports are so popular, but I know that they are popular, and my lack of knowledge about the how or why doesn't change the fact that they are popular. So, I don't know how or why a dragonfly can pick out weak points, I just know that it can because that is what the description says.
Okay, that lacks a point really. Unless it is that I'm using crunch to try and prove to you (Who requested crunch proof) that HK drones can do what they say they can do in fluff. By crunch I've proven that they operate as intended, and by fluff they automatically operate as fluff says they operate. I don't see a problem here.
Even body 0 drones couldn't be crushed with bare hands by the rules. Weird, I know, but those are the rules. Unless I missed something special about body 0 drones being susceptible to stun damage. And so far, no, no rules have been invented yet.

Like I said, no invented rules, unless you want to count landing on things as an invented rule (It isn't), or things which aren't moving in relationship to you not getting a defense roll as an invented rule (It isn't). I mean, is breathing an invented rule? Because breathing isn't actually in the rules anywhere. Holding your breath is, but breathing is not.

SR4B P. 247 Intuition+Body(2) must be rolled for every 10 minutes of game time or your character suddenly forgets how to breathe and drowning rules take effect until your character remembers how to breathe, which requires another Intuition+Body roll, with an increased threshold of 4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Don't even Body 0 drones still have 8+(Body/2) boxes in their condition monitor?

Another crunchy problem with the HK Drones is that they're likely to do only Stun damage against most combat drones, because their modified-damage vs. modified armor isn't that great. So the damage would be reduced to Stun and ignored by the prey drone.

I like the idea of HK drones, but they do need some special rules. For example:
- Latching on (similar to Grappling?)
- Armor penetration (drill?)
- Injecting something damaging beneath the target's armor casing(nanites, industrial acid?)

For anti-personnel HKs:
- Latching on
- Armor penetration ("Needle/Drill")
- Subdual method (taser, poison, nanites)

That would actually be a really scary threat to Tank Trolls heavily armored enemies.

HKs need some special rules, but there is similar technology to look to for inspiration. They can have quite powerful stuff, but they're limited by their specialization, or they wouldn't be as small.

As for the "sensitive body part" software, isn't that what Targeting autosoft is for?

A rating 6 vehicle blueprint is 60Y and can be copied and distributed. A HK drone with detailed schematics of a common vehicle would easily be able to get inside the vehicle on the underside and starting to cut cables and get a modifier to their attack test due to intricate knowledge of the vehicle.

We also have teamwork tests and an attack test against a vehicle when you have LANDED on it would be a target that cannot move.

This would essentially be a MELEE attack and an infiltrating drone, in the undercarriage on the vehicle exposing sensitive components.

Attacker Superior Position +2
Defender Prone (well, I have his guts exposed) +3
Called Shot +1 minimum

OR we go by ranged rules

Smartgun Link +2
Called Shot +1 minimum

Do armored vehicles really have open undercarriages?

Also, once you've latched on to a vehicle, and are basically crawling around on something that can't affect you, are melee rules really appropriate?

Well, even if they had an armored undercarriage they still need access for the suspension, wheels, brakes and other pieces.

I can imagine a small drone latch on and weld a hole and crawl inside the vehicle.

Just to keep it straight I'm the one who's fixated on a rule for everything, most of the time.

And for swarms, any number of these that share the same subscription should be considered a swarm.

Maybe.. I'd expect military drone designers to be trying to come up with defenses against that though.

Well, most uses for HK drones would be smaller drones with less body and less armor.

Most anti-vehicle uses for runners would be against modified regular vehicles and not military vehicles.

I agree: I guess there's *another* invented rule that the HK drones automatically don't get their attack staged down to Stun and *utterly ignored*.

The size of the swarm absolutely matters, because we're specifically talking about how effective these things are. I didn't say it had to be rigidly defined, I said we need to consider how many we're talking about: 6 is a lot different from 20, while a real 'swarm' of insects could be hundreds or more. Everything depends on this, because a hundred of these guys (250,000¥) could do some real damage.

Smacked against a hard surface is the same as a weapon: P damage. Dead tiny drone. It's just an example, and (as I clearly said) it's made up. It's not like it could get out of your hand, anyway.

Karoline, you simply haven't proven anyway at all. You gave an example of the thing maybe scratching the weakest possible metahuman target, and not hurting a truck (with invented rules).

I'm not arguing that the HK shouldn't work, only that the fluff describes things that you have to handwave into working. They certainly can fulfill their primary purpose: killing Body 0 and Body 1 surveillance drones.

OK, now that I have a few can someone explain the problems people are having? It looks like a whole lot of rules wrangling over something that looks to be really easy to design and build without all this mess and fuss.

Looks like these are the the design criteria:
1) Built to RAW
2) Be Micro-drone sized.


My questions:

1) Does it have to be reusable or can it be a one shot?
2) Cost? I'm assuming 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for disposable and 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for reusable.
3) Anti-personnel, drones or vehicle?

Hell give me your particulars and I'll drown you in RAW drones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) RAW, you can't design or build drones.

RAW you can. You just have to modify existing designs.

Except that drone still has 8 health boxes, no matter how small it is...



That's the only thing they're really good for, and even that takes them several rounds of chewing. Sad, because the fluff is neat.

That's not what I said, that's 'modify'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I just want my Rigger 4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

What are you asking about, anyway? The HK already exists.

No, Ascalaphus, I'm sure Body 0 drones auto-die if hit. Where's that rule… Anyway, that's what I was talking about.

In the common sense holding area, where they keep the rules about drugging vehicles and spirits?

Bust-A-Move:
0 3/10 10 2 1 0 1 - 350NY
TerminationL: Self Destruct - 1000NY



Smuggling Compartment at 1500 NY, and then packing it with c4 is of course, another option.

Heh, no. Maybe I imagined it, or it's SR3. *shrug*