Granted, I've never read any of the books, but is there a specific incident that this refers to? Are dragons simply always double-crossers? Untrustworthy? A bargain you won't be able to keep?

I've never been a big fan of the saying, because it's often seemed to me like making a deal with a dragon is better than pissing a dragon off by not making a deal with them. If you make a deal, you're at least temporarily useful, and will be able to, y'know, leave the room with all your limbs and stuff.

The issues arise from two things; their alien/inhuman nature, and their remarkably high mental attributes. That means they're smart enough to probably double cross you successfully, or they've got so many schemes going that you might never really know what you're doing for them or why, or that they might think of you kind of like a really talented ant that's saving them a little bit of trouble (but why honor an arrangement, really, with an ant?), or maybe making a deal with one of them will get you involved in inter-dragon politics and make you enemies of all the rest of them, or on and on and on. There are a billion ways it can go wrong, is the long and short of it, even compared to your average job for your average Mr. Johnson.

You take your chances, either way. Personally? Like I said, I'd rather say "yes" to a dragon than "no," if for no other reason than to make myself momentarily useful to them and ensure they're not going to bite my face off right that very second.

Yeah... i am on Critias side here.

Say "Yes"... but holy HELL. Take care. If you EVER work for either:

A Dragon,
A Free Spirit (powerful),
An AI,
Or any kind of Immortal (Nosferatu, Immortal Elf etc.):

Don't let your guard down, document EVERYTHING. And don't go to BED (things could happen while you are asleep *g*)

I allways thought "to cut a Deal" means cheating, cutting away a Peace of the Deal for yourself ?
And that it meant to never cheat a Dragon with part of the Deal and to keep up with what you promised ?

JohtaHey
Medicineman

You know those chess players that can play a game or two in advance, rather than just a move or five?

Dragons play entire tournaments in advance. In their heads. Constantly. In their sleep. While dead drunk. While doing complex mathematics that make Stephen Hawking's head hurt.

And they have their own plan, which may, or may not, involve the eradication or slavery of Metahumanity.

And they know far more about what is going on with all the changes in the world than they're talking about, even the small harmless parts.

Dunkie made up for that a bit, and was able to earn enough trust despite the stereotype against Dragons to become President... Unless he cheated the election just enough to win. He's already proven he can jigger digital things without getting caught. But, after the previous election was faked...

Well, convenient that, isn't it? Falsification doesn't necessarily mean it was the people in question that did it.

Hm... well some dictionary says this:

cut a deal
to arrange a deal; to negotiate an agreement.

cut a deal (American)
to make an agreement or an arrangement with someone, especially in business or politics

I think it really just means "make a deal".

The more complete saying should be, “never cut a deal with a Dragon that’s not extremely well thought out and without contingency plans”.

I had a merc character whose ambition was to get a gig as a S-K troubleshooter reporting directly to you know who.

One of our PCs tried to make a deal with Ghostwalker, against everyone else's advice. (Actually, he wanted to rob Ghostwalker, at least they talked him out of that.) The PC is a great face, accustomed to everything going his way, especially negotiations. Unfortunately, he forgot about magic. He left Ghostwalker's lair with no deal and a mental compulsion to report back on everything the PCs did.

That's why you don't (try to) deal with a dragon. A dragon doesn't need to worry about honoring his end of the bargain if he can bully you into doing what he wants.

Yeah, I think it was going to the whole, just don't even try to make contact with them.
You see them in the street, just keep on walking and try not to make eye contact, since what they're peddling is not conducive to your wellbeing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

When you read the descriptions of the published dragons, most of them are realy quite honorable. If they hire you for a job they will pay you. They are less likely to screw you over than many other johnsons.

The problem is they are smart and have wide ranging plans.

If a corp Johnson hires you he probably works for a division and you can do some digging and find out what this is all about. The time scale won’t go back more than 20 years or forward more than 5. you can hope to strategize on his level. Also the enemies will be (meta)human and you can strategize on there level as well.

If your working for a dragon his strategic time frame goes back 5000 years and forward about the same. You might be able to work out a couple of the more obvious elements of the plan, as they affect the short term but there is no way you will understand what is going on. Worse his enemies (and yours for as long as your working for him) are likely thinking at, or close too draconic levels.

Take bradd’s example of dealing with ghost walker. He has a system set up to get an audience, he responds well to polite suggestions. If you actually has something to offer him (and most shadow runners don’t) he would happily deal with you fairly. Ofcause you have no chance of swindling him and you don’t likely have anything he wants so what basis do you have to deal. The response received seems appropriate to wasting a dragons time. The question becomes why dose ghost walker even want updates on the runners activities.

They will also [probably] outlive your character, meaning they can have extremely long-range plans in mind.

The other reason is that it hurts your street-cred, I believe it ups your notoriety by a point. Everyone distrusts dragons, and working for one means you might have been compromised.

It's the your crunchy in milk theory of doing business.

(AKA don't help things higher on the food chain then you.)

In this case, Ghostwalker was actually looking for the PCs. They were traveling with Jane "Frosty" Foster and a powerful 4th World artifact. Ghostwalker had an agent approach and invite them to an audience. Everyone else said HELL NO. They knew the likelihood that Ghostwalker would try to acquire the map and Frosty herself. However, the face was a bit too self-assured and thought he could get away with playing James Bond and waltz into the dragon's den. At least we talked him out of playing Bilbo Baggins.

Luckily, everyone was also smart enough not to trust the face until all of the magic wore off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Is there another saying that goes somewhat along the lines of "giving the dragon anything he wants"?

This. Except the Dragon has already accounted for your contingency plans and made them either part of his(her?) overall plan or set things in motion to make those contingencies highly highly undesirable.

My read on this whole 'don't deal with a dragon' isn't that the dragon will necessarily strongarm or doublecross you. As mentioned, the dragon has a much longer view than you do. The dragon has a lot more resources to bring to bear if he really wants to than you do. The dragon is physically stronger than you are. The reason the dragon's hiring you is something that almost exclusively benefits the dragon, with you just getting a little cut of the money. They are smarter than you, they know more than you. It is not going to be to your benefit.

You are not on equal footing. And there's one more thing to bear in mind.

The dragon probably has much more powerful enemies, than you do. Right now. Cut a deal and that may change. Dragons deal with other dragons on a regular basis. Even doing a favor for one of them will raise the ire of other dragons, or other beings of dragon-like power, and bring you to their attention. For example: even if Ghostwalker pays you handsomely for your services, he's unlikely to care much about what happens to you next. And Lofwyr probably didn't like what you did.

'Do Not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons, for You are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup.'

I always thought it was a dumb phrase too. I guess it implies that you should never go looking for dragons, which is good advice, really. But if a dragon decides to introduce himself you should really just say "Sir" a lot and fasten your seatbelt.

That would depend, wouldn't it? If the character in question is indeed as smart as or smarter than the dragon, then I do not see why the dragon's contingencies would necessarily trump the character's.

Presumably, the player never satisfies that condition. Dragons are Batman, juiced on Plot Magic power. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then what do you do with characters whose mental attributes are comparable to dragons? Do you just screw them over if they try to work on the same level as dragons?

On the other hand, the dragon is only likely to kill you/your team. Cut a deal with the Mob and they could go after you, your family and everyone you've ever met, or whatever the line is.

Sephiroth, yup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Besides, that only means that the dragon was mis-statted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I can get there with 400 BP, 35 karma, and a successful metaplanar quest.

And it should otherwise be known as a "Series Ending."

Maybe.

Depends on how much you screw over/inconvenience the dragon.

I once had a Lasombra in a Vampire: The Masquerade game who showed just how vindictive someone with a long enough lifespan can be. A human hunter tried to kill him once, and in exchange my character made a point of culling their family line every few generations, snipping here, trimming there, to get them back down to one or two, and then he'd go away for fifty or sixty years and do vampirey stuff. Then he'd come back and kill all of them but one or two -- never quite wiping the man's bloodline off the planet, but always being able to if he'd wanted -- and basically he was just a sadistic cat toying with a mouse, for something like five hundred years.

I imagine a dragon could do the same, if it were properly motivated and didn't have any other pressing business. There's no reason to assume a dragon would be any more forgiving, or any less thorough than the mob, at any rate.

But would a dragon be that petty?