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Critias
post Nov 6 2010, 06:36 AM
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QUOTE (Zyerne @ Nov 6 2010, 02:33 AM) *
But would a dragon be that petty?

If properly motivated, maybe.

Are you gonna bet your life, and the lives of everyone you've ever loved, on the fact that they won't be?
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Zyerne
post Nov 6 2010, 06:48 AM
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No, but if I make a deal with a dragon, I'm not gonna be the one breaking it.
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PoliteMan
post Nov 6 2010, 07:11 AM
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I've never been a fan of this saying. Yes, a Dragon is dangerous because he outweighs the Shadowrunners on every level (physically, intellectually, monetarily, and magically) but that's true of any host of groups in Shadowrun. I've never understood what makes a Dragon more dangerous than any high powered corp executive or Mafia Don with a squad of Red Samurai, their own team or initiated mages, and their own think tank. Besides, there's simply too many examples of beings in the fluff who compete with dragons on a near equal level. Damien Knight (to the best of my knowledge) played chess with Dunkie and the Azzies have enough juice to fight the Great Dragons of Amazonia, their Awakened servants, and still cause mischief throughout the entire world. Only two things really differentiate dragons from any other powerful entity in Shadowrun: they combine all that power in one being (which has advantages and disadvantages) and they have an unmatched understanding of ancient history.

Meeting a regular dragon means you've hit the big leagues and by that point you better have a guy who can dish out (and survive) anti-tank fire, an initiated mage, a guy with enough computers, nanoware, and brain surgery that he knows ALL the digits of pi, and Kevin Bacon (who by extension knows everybody). Meeting a Great Dragon should mean you're either in serious trouble or your team owns their own corp.
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Marcus
post Nov 6 2010, 07:40 AM
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QUOTE (PoliteMan @ Nov 6 2010, 02:11 AM) *
I've never been a fan of this saying. Yes, a Dragon is dangerous because he outweighs the Shadowrunners on every level (physically, intellectually, monetarily, and magically) but that's true of any host of groups in Shadowrun. I've never understood what makes a Dragon more dangerous than any high powered corp executive or Mafia Don with a squad of Red Samurai, their own team or initiated mages, and their own think tank.



Corps are dangerous, the Mob is dangerous, mages dangerous, but none of those can shape reality by willpower alone. All the other organization are just gonna send people with technology and/or magic after you. Greater dragons have powers that make everything but very high force great form spirits look like pansies. They have resources outside the scope of the sand box most players stay in. There is negative rep attached for associating with dragons cause the average man know that things is a giant lizard that could eat him for breakfast. People rightly fear such things. If your GM plays the dragon card there not a whole lot you can do but hold on, but dragons showing up can change campaigns to train ride real quickly. (There's nothing wrong with railroading if thats how your group wants to play but it something that shadowrun usually isn't about.)

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PoliteMan
post Nov 6 2010, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE
Corps are dangerous, the Mob is dangerous, mages dangerous, but none of those can shape reality by willpower alone. All the other organization are just gonna send people with technology and/or magic after you. Greater dragons have powers that make everything but very high force great form spirits look like pansies.


Thor shots warp reality. Nukes warp reality. Megacorps to a large extent define reality in the 6th World. Hell, the Matrix warps reality and that's really the only weak point dragons have. What exactly can a dragon, or a Great, do that's gonna make something like Deus or MCT look like a pansy?
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Dread Moores
post Nov 6 2010, 08:22 AM
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You shouldn't cut a deal with a dragon, mostly because it often seems like a poor excuse for GMs to behave badly and just turn it into their story, rather than remembering its a shared game.
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ProfGast
post Nov 6 2010, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 5 2010, 05:36 PM) *
That would depend, wouldn't it? If the character in question is indeed as smart as or smarter than the dragon, then I do not see why the dragon's contingencies would necessarily trump the character's.

I suppose that its possible to match a Lesser Dragon's mental shenanigans and even top them once and a while. Such people are however, rare, even among shadowrunners (I'd say various CEOs like Damien Knight may apply) but honestly, the SR4A stats given for dragons baselines Lesser dragons at 8 across the board for their Cha/Int/Log/Wil
and gives Eastern dragons 9/8/10/8. So it's possible, with a few nice qualities, to match or possibly exceed a Lesser's mental abilities but at least at character generation, that's ALL you'll have over them and it'll probably be rather expensive. They still have all the other previously mentioned edges over you and have finally (goody goody!) found a mortal who can match wits with them!

Probably still not a good situation to get into.

This is to say nothing of Greats, who, by SR4A, are given a flat "modifier" to the lesser dragon types of oh, about +5 to all their mental stats. I personally don't know how to get a minimum of 13 to a Mental Attribute, only dice pool bonuses to relevant tests. Anyone else have a way?

I still say that it's generally good advice to not cut deals with dragons. They are holding too many cards, and unless you have sufficient leverage, you're not likely to come out ahead overall. And as noted by some other people, simply associating with dragons may give you a hit to your rep.

QUOTE (PoliteMan)
Thor shots warp reality. Nukes warp reality. Megacorps to a large extent define reality in the 6th World. Hell, the Matrix warps reality and that's really the only weak point dragons have. What exactly can a dragon, or a Great, do that's gonna make something like Deus or MCT look like a pansy?

The fact that Lesser Dragons have an Ess of 7-12, and Greats have a Ess of 12. And that dragons are given Magic ratings = to their Essence. That's "reality warping" enough for me to be a bit scared. I should very well hope I can't piss a corp enough to get them to thor-shot me in any case. Seems like a terrible waste of a mass-driver.

Edit: And upon a second review I think this should be reiterated. Lofwyr is a Great Dragon. Lofwyr IS Saeder-krupp. Not to mention the various rumors of a Great being on Aztechnology's board and the like.
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SleepIncarnate
post Nov 6 2010, 09:22 AM
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QUOTE (PoliteMan @ Nov 6 2010, 02:19 AM) *
Thor shots warp reality. Nukes warp reality. Megacorps to a large extent define reality in the 6th World. Hell, the Matrix warps reality and that's really the only weak point dragons have. What exactly can a dragon, or a Great, do that's gonna make something like Deus or MCT look like a pansy?

Crash 3.0?
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Whipstitch
post Nov 6 2010, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 6 2010, 01:36 AM) *
If properly motivated, maybe.


Plus, it's really easy to delegate your pettiness when you're Lofwyr, so it gets really ridiculous really fast when you talk about Greats. In my games having a corporate security division head honest to god gunning for you in particular would be the sort of thing that would very quickly become the campaign focus. Lofwyr can make that happen with a fraggin' office memo.
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 6 2010, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Nov 6 2010, 04:56 AM) *
I always thought it was a dumb phrase too. I guess it implies that you should never go looking for dragons, which is good advice, really. But if a dragon decides to introduce himself you should really just say "Sir" a lot and fasten your seatbelt.


That's basically it. Don't think you're up to it, don't go looking for it. But if the dragon comes to you, just hope that his plans for you don't require you to be sacrificed, because if they do, it'll happen in a way you won't have planned for.

QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 6 2010, 05:36 AM) *
That would depend, wouldn't it? If the character in question is indeed as smart as or smarter than the dragon, then I do not see why the dragon's contingencies would necessarily trump the character's.


I think that besides astronomical mental attributes, dragons have some other advantages;
- lots of time to dream up plans using that intelligence, whereas many runners live from day to day
- lots of knowledge. IQ without knowledge isn't the same as IQ with knowledge.
- vast resources to facilitate planning and contingency research
- prestige; people will scurry to do a dragon's bidding in ways they'd never do for a runner. And when dealing with anti-dragon people, the dragon can just hire a Johnson.
- lots of magic; they didn't sacrifice their Essence to get those mental attributes that high, they just start there
- lots of allies; lots of wizards would do anything for a chance to learn magic from a dragon
- experience; they've done all this before. They've sharpened their wits against vampires, dragons and immortal elves. Corporations tend to be rather predictable compared to that. AIs are the only new kind of player at their level.
- dragons are alien; dragons understand people, but people don't understand dragons. That makes the planning game unfair.
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toturi
post Nov 6 2010, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 6 2010, 06:02 PM) *
- dragons are alien; dragons understand people, but people don't understand dragons. That makes the planning game unfair.

Dragons don't understand people, that's why they are alien. People understand people. That can make the planning game unfair - for the dragons.

And PCs do not need to be and are not normal people or even normal runners. They can also be vampires or AIs.

Dragons do not all start with vast resources. They have to get it first. They are not all experienced, they haven't done this all before, especially since none of this have been here before.
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Neraph
post Nov 6 2010, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Nov 6 2010, 02:22 AM) *
You shouldn't cut a deal with a dragon, mostly because it often seems like a poor excuse for GMs to behave badly and just turn it into their story, rather than remembering its a shared game.

This is one of the best answers I've read so far.

As to the whole thing about magic and dragons and PCs not being cool enough - again, with 400 BP, 35 karma, and a successful metaplanar quest, I'm fairly sure a character I make can rival (and probably control) a dragon, and shortly afterwards I could rival even Greats. The thing that makes them scary is that they don't need the 35 karma and successful quest - they start there.
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CanRay
post Nov 6 2010, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE (Zyerne @ Nov 6 2010, 01:33 AM) *
But would a dragon be that petty?

I remember one story about Lofwyr setting up a group of Shadowrunners that did some minor wrong against him that allowed him to profit in five or six ways, and got all of the Shadowrunners dead but one...

He was assassinated shortly thereafter.

So, yes. They can be petty. They can be vindictive. They can be downright cruel.

Even the nice ones. Dunkie screwed someone over in his will: "For a period of ten days beginning on 14 February 2057, Lars J. Matthews will cease to possess any legal status. He will be stripped of all evidence of legal existence, including SIN, credsticks, DocWagon contract, bank accounts and so on. To the individual or group who ends Lars J. Matthews’ physical existence during those ten days, I leave all of Matthews’ assets and 1 million nuyen for a job well done. If Mr. Matthews survives and can prove his identity, his legal status and all possessions will be restored to him. Haven’t you heard? Never deal with a dragon, Lars." - Dunkelzahn's Will

Of course, I wonder what the hell Lars did to earn this form of wrath...
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Kumo
post Nov 6 2010, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE
Of course, I wonder what the hell Lars did to earn this form of wrath...

Never steal dragon's last Mountain Dew...

I see everyone mean mostly GREAT Dragons. Lesser ones aren't SO powerful or smart - but they are still more powerful and smart than any of metahumans. Besides, in most cases, we are nothing but a lower form of life from their point of view. Sometimes just annoying or useful lower form of life. Guys who were able to beat the dragon (I mean Twist) were smart - AND had great support AND very, very much luck.

GDs are the same thing - but for them, other dragons are a kind of lower life form...

QUOTE
I remember one story about Lofwyr setting up a group of Shadowrunners that did some minor wrong against him that allowed him to profit in five or six ways, and got all of the Shadowrunners dead but one...

He was assassinated shortly thereafter.

It was in first "Threats". S-K hired team of runners who earned Lofwyr's wrath. So:
- all shadowrunners were dead at the end,
- S-K' security tested on them new method of paracritter training,
- runners destroyed R&D lab owned by S-K subsidiary... Which has a very nice insurance bougth just a few days earlier,
- last runner stole data from R&D's computer and sold them to Shiawase. But those data were just an impressive, worthless dead end.

And it was just a one of minor plans made each month by a Golden Wyrm.

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Inncubi
post Nov 6 2010, 09:32 PM
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In my opinion the answer is simple, and avoiding the "Dragon deals because of plotline and GM's desire to include overgrown snakes that breathe fire in a cyberpunk setting" explanation, and trying instead to find a "fluffy" believable one.

Now to the point:

Shadowrunners are nobodies. Dragons are "über" beasties, long lifespans and the experience that comes with it, genius intelligence an alien -for human ideas- concepts of right/wrong, adequate/inadequate, strange methods and even stranger goals. Their plans will be above your comprehension, even if you have the same mental scores, because you simply lack the information to make correct assessments on tehir long and mid-term goals. If a dragon wants something from you, or out of you or with you, its probable that you'll end up like a simple marionette dancing to the big worm's waltz, even if you'll become rich and powerful, you will loose freedom of choice.

And that is the best case scenario.

Do you want to cut a deal with a Dragon now?
I don't.
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rofltehcat
post Nov 6 2010, 10:22 PM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 6 2010, 07:25 AM) *
Maybe.

Depends on how much you screw over/inconvenience the dragon.

I once had a Lasombra in a Vampire: The Masquerade game who showed just how vindictive someone with a long enough lifespan can be. A human hunter tried to kill him once, and in exchange my character made a point of culling their family line every few generations, snipping here, trimming there, to get them back down to one or two, and then he'd go away for fifty or sixty years and do vampirey stuff. Then he'd come back and kill all of them but one or two -- never quite wiping the man's bloodline off the planet, but always being able to if he'd wanted -- and basically he was just a sadistic cat toying with a mouse, for something like five hundred years.

I imagine a dragon could do the same, if it were properly motivated and didn't have any other pressing business. There's no reason to assume a dragon would be any more forgiving, or any less thorough than the mob, at any rate.

This is awesome. I love the idea of someone or something having their own personal famility tree bonsai.

Overall it seems to boil down to "don't deal with powers above what you can deal with" and dragons seems to be so high above what normal runners can handle that they won't be happy with it for long.
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limejello10512
post Nov 7 2010, 12:35 AM
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actually I could see a dragon being as petty as the vampire but not as stupid I mean when you think about it if he lets those people go, they're going to eventually rebuild themselves in such a way as to be prepared to fight him and rally and kill him. if he just lets them go to rebuild he's basicly giving them an infinite number of chances to do so. Eventually they'll suceed and he'll never even know the vampire is doing it. So I might see a dragon doing something similar but not in such a way that would put him in danger.




.....................Though that is an interesting plot twist if dragons are so awesome and everyhting...might they be a little full of them selves....pathetic humans can't hurt me...I'm waaaaay smarter than they are.... that much arrogance is their achilies heel and sometimes it might make them easy to surprise.

Also you know that saying never cut a deal with a dragon. No, seriously you KNOW that saying everyone does... they're notoriously untrustowrthy and schemey. No one wants to do business with them to the point that I imagine they can only doe so through intermediaries another weakness.

So that's there weakness too arrogant and too schemey for their own good. Yes a dragon is that eric cartman character who always comes in at the end of the episode with a briliant plan coming together but A dragon is also the eric cartman who's more likely to have a plan backfire than he might realize. Remember you can't play a tournament in advance a dragon probably just thinks he can and how ever many enventualities he prepares for it leaves him unprepared for the wild card.

Your runner team should take that into acccount. That might be fun to deal with a dragon.
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KarmaInferno
post Nov 7 2010, 01:07 AM
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I've always understood the phrase to mean, "Don't get involved with anything a Dragon does because if you do you will ALWAYS end up in situations WAY WAY WAY over your head and possibly end up dead. Things will snowball out of control and the best you can hope for is to be able to limp away from the affair with your skin not too badly ripped up."




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CanadianWolverin...
post Nov 7 2010, 06:06 AM
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Who first coined the phrase? How soon after Dragons first reappeared did the phrase show up? After Dunk gave his talk explaining what the frack was going on? And is it a common phrase among the various citizens of the world or is it something whispered in the shadows?
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Critias
post Nov 7 2010, 06:57 AM
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I'm pretty sure you're overthinking it.
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 7 2010, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 6 2010, 03:43 PM) *
Dragons don't understand people, that's why they are alien. People understand people. That can make the planning game unfair - for the dragons.


Dragons have far better opportunities to study metahumanity; a lot of time, a lot of metahumans, and metahumans like to talk about themselves. That's what most of TV and literature is all about.
Dragons on the other hand like to keep a lot of information about themselves a secret. Check out Dragons of the Sixth World; that's more or less what well-informed metahumans know about dragons - it's not really all that much.


QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 6 2010, 03:43 PM) *
And PCs do not need to be and are not normal people or even normal runners. They can also be vampires or AIs.


I think that was a case of bad game design, trying to turn every weird thing into a player race to sell more books. It also developed waaay after the original saying became popular. I mean really, how many NPC AI and vampire runners would there really be?

QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 6 2010, 03:43 PM) *
Dragons do not all start with vast resources. They have to get it first. They are not all experienced, they haven't done this all before, especially since none of this have been here before.


It's just as new and surprising to humanity; a newly awakened dragon could adapt to it pretty fast, given how smart they are.
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Mayhem_2006
post Nov 7 2010, 12:42 PM
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I'd think the saying predates SR dragons, anyway, to the dragons of mythology.

Anyone, for example, who has read The Hobbit knows why you don't try to negotiate with a dragon.
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toturi
post Nov 7 2010, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 7 2010, 06:35 PM) *
Dragons on the other hand like to keep a lot of information about themselves a secret. Check out Dragons of the Sixth World; that's more or less what well-informed metahumans know about dragons - it's not really all that much.

But on the other hand, both in Dot6W and SotF, dragons (indeed even Great Dragons) don't really know as much about humanity as most presume.
QUOTE
I think that was a case of bad game design, trying to turn every weird thing into a player race to sell more books. It also developed waaay after the original saying became popular. I mean really, how many NPC AI and vampire runners would there really be?

So? I mean really does it matter how many NPC AI and vampire runners there are? All it matters is that there can now be PC AI and vampire runners.
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 7 2010, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 7 2010, 02:51 PM) *
So? I mean really does it matter how many NPC AI and vampire runners there are? All it matters is that there can now be PC AI and vampire runners.


Those are fringe cases. General guidelines for shadowrunners aren't invalidated just because the new weird thing is different. For the vast majority of runners, avoiding all entanglement in draconic intrigue is very good advice.
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toturi
post Nov 7 2010, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 7 2010, 08:59 PM) *
Those are fringe cases. General guidelines for shadowrunners aren't invalidated just because the new weird thing is different. For the vast majority of runners, avoiding all entanglement in draconic intrigue is very good advice.

For the vast majority of runners, turning down Herr Brackhaus is not a good career move either.
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