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#26
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 873 Joined: 16-September 10 Member No.: 19,052 ![]() |
Er? Could you expand on that? Well... maybe it's just a feeling I have. I shudder when I see 2s on a character sheet. Both as a player, and as a GM. And seriously, while SR3 makes stat alrounders easier, you can't have everything, and the ork looks like a manageable compromise between exaggerated quickness and workable other stats. Personally I would drop 1-2 points more off quickness and put them in BOD. Call me paranoid... QUOTE For Mundanes, it should be noted. If Magic isn't already taking up Priority E they aren't free anymore. They are - kind of - cheap for mages, too, since you can often afford to skimp on something as a mage. Plus that Willpower is a big thing for mages, so, well, we KNOW that there are a lot of dwarf mages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . QUOTE "Very manageable" isn't very manageable at all—assuming a 6M SMG you need at least 6 points of armor for the soak TN to be lower than the dodge TN, and you still need nine successes minimum. Compare to dodging where you still need to hit the hard 6 TN but you only need to match your opponent's successes. ~J Hmmm... when I GMed in SR3 I basically told my players "You've got to be able to take 12S to 12D attacks without TOO much damage, if you want to stand anywhere on the front. Or not get hit." I also never had a character with less than 9 ballistic armour, and basing encumbrance on quickness means a high QCK character is often golden in that respect, too. Maxing out armour is, IMHO, completely mandatory in SR3, because armour is just really that good. Also, wasn't it 8 successes for D damage? 2 per category, right? Or is my memory tricking me? The point is, you always have that BOD score. Your pool can run out. And with a decend TN (enough armour) those BOD dice are quite reliable for a large part of the game. (My perception is also skewed because we ALWAYS played with the D cutoff rule, that is, no D* or whatever damage. If something is likely to kill you, that's it.) |
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Well... maybe it's just a feeling I have. I shudder when I see 2s on a character sheet. So do I, but I felt like putting 1s would be a bit much for a comparison like this even if it'd probably work in play. Or is that not what you meant? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (Seriously, I need to switch over to a BeCKS variant yesterday) QUOTE Both as a player, and as a GM. And seriously, while SR3 makes stat alrounders easier, you can't have everything, and the ork looks like a manageable compromise between exaggerated quickness and workable other stats. Personally I would drop 1-2 points more off quickness and put them in BOD. Call me paranoid... Ok, I'll call you paranoid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but note that the Elf has seven BP hanging around, enough for three more points of Body if that's what you want. You can even drop the last point of Quickness, swap EA/EAP between Quickness and Int, max out Body, and have room to grow Int to 11 in the future. QUOTE They are - kind of - cheap for mages, too, since you can often afford to skimp on something as a mage. Plus that Willpower is a big thing for mages, so, well, we KNOW that there are a lot of dwarf mages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Maybe, but the specific case of Mundane Human is unusual for effectively having two categories at Priority E (and thus allowing the free—apart from metaracial mods—upgrade to Priority D Race). QUOTE Hmmm... when I GMed in SR3 I basically told my players "You've got to be able to take 12S to 12D attacks without TOO much damage, if you want to stand anywhere on the front. Or not get hit." I agree. It's just my opinion that it's very difficult to actually do that, and requires either the Armor spell or heavy post-chargen armor (think Security Armor with helmet and up). Consequently, my approach is either "don't get hit" or "don't stand on the front" (this may explain our differing evaluation of the Elf's low Body). Edit: also, I generally consider "TOO much damage" to be L due to the whole TN-mod situation. Damage-compensating 'ware, edges, or powers help alleviate that a little, as would a good mage with Resist Pain, but I don't see those a lot. QUOTE I also never had a character with less than 9 ballistic armour You've been holding out on me! How'd you do it without military armor? Or does this rely on the most generous interpretation of the FFBA and armor stacking rules? (It's still a reasonable interpretation given how poorly-written those are, but not what our group believes the intention was) QUOTE Also, wasn't it 8 successes for D damage? 2 per category, right? Or is my memory tricking me? 2 per category, yes, but the trick is that that's net successes. For ranged attacks, you cancel and then stage. Since we know the attack hit the attacker must have had at least 1 gross success (or net after a dodge attempt), so you also need to cancel that out for a total of 9 successes. That said, beating 8 successes isn't much better. QUOTE The point is, you always have that BOD score. Your pool can run out. And with a decend TN (enough armour) those BOD dice are quite reliable for a large part of the game. I think this really hinges on different treatments of the aforementioned armor stacking and FFBA rules. Under our interpretation getting beyond about 6 Ballistic requires pricey and hard-to-get (post-chargen) gear, and more importantly requires obvious gear so it only comes out on an assault. Higher armor being more feasible does significantly change the evaluation, improving the value of Body. QUOTE (My perception is also skewed because we ALWAYS played with the D cutoff rule, that is, no D* or whatever damage. If something is likely to kill you, that's it.) You're referring to the Deadlier Over-Damage rules? There are three treatments of "greater-than-D" (well, four if you count naval damage)—Deadlier Over-Damage, the Melee rules where the attacker stages before the defender soaks and where every staging past D gives +1 Power, and the ranged rules where staging happens on net successes of attack vs. soak; in this third treatment, net successes beyond what is required to stage to D are lost. ~J |
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#28
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 873 Joined: 16-September 10 Member No.: 19,052 ![]() |
Ok, quick one for the armour, don't have much time.
I always played "socially acceptable" armour. I'm not really sure of the exact workings right now, but we did it like this, and I had the feeling that this was RAW, at least an interpretation: Largest layer armour counts full. Lower layers count half, but full for encumbrance. So you basically wear an armoured Jacket or overcoat, and then the 4:2 suit of Vashon Island Actioneer - possibly re-styled - and then the FFBA. That's 5:3 + 2:1 + 2:0, which comes out to 9:4. Now you have to deal with impact somehow, but.... For encumbrance there was some way that fit together, too... possibly the FFBA doesn't count at all? I don't remember exactly. So you basically had 9 encumbrance, which worked out perfectly for 9QCK. Of course it also tended to be frightfully easy to get at least light security armour, because everyone and their mother was wearing it. I'm also not certain, I think we had damage resistance test independant of the attacker. The attacker rolled his attack, staged up the damage via net hits. (up one for every two hits, and Power got raised in melee after D was reached). We stopped staging up at D. But the damage itself was then fixed. So two hits on the resistance staged it down one step. So taking a 9D attack with 9 armour just meant you had to roll eight 2s, quite easily done with minor investment of pool. |
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#29
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Ok, quick one for the armour, don't have much time. I always played "socially acceptable" armour. I'm not really sure of the exact workings right now, but we did it like this, and I had the feeling that this was RAW, at least an interpretation: Largest layer armour counts full. Lower layers count half, but full for encumbrance. So you basically wear an armoured Jacket or overcoat, and then the 4:2 suit of Vashon Island Actioneer - possibly re-styled - and then the FFBA. That's 5:3 + 2:1 + 2:0, which comes out to 9:4. Now you have to deal with impact somehow, but.... For encumbrance there was some way that fit together, too... possibly the FFBA doesn't count at all? I don't remember exactly. So you basically had 9 encumbrance, which worked out perfectly for 9QCK. Yeah, that's the generous interpretation—it hinges on the interpretation of the Layering Armor section as to whether you're restricted to two layers or whether you simply halve every layer after the first. Our interpretation of canon restricts to two layers. Jacket plus longcoat does get you to seven, though, I'd forgotten that (despite taking both items in the example loadouts for weight above!). The extra two points of armor makes a decent difference—ten Body dice against a 12S+1 attack on 7 armor gives about a 2% chance of full soak, while getting up to 9 armor puts you at about 56%. I do believe we've found the source of our differing valuations of Body. For Encumbrance, FFBA does indeed not count towards Combat Pool loss or Quickness penalties. QUOTE Of course it also tended to be frightfully easy to get at least light security armour, because everyone and their mother was wearing it. Sure, it's easy to get it. It's harder to get it without putting big holes in it first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (Though as a GM I haven't played Security Armor as that common. That may be a mistake on my part.) QUOTE I'm also not certain, I think we had damage resistance test independant of the attacker. The attacker rolled his attack, staged up the damage via net hits. (up one for every two hits, and Power got raised in melee after D was reached). We stopped staging up at D. But the damage itself was then fixed. So two hits on the resistance staged it down one step. So taking a 9D attack with 9 armour just meant you had to roll eight 2s, quite easily done with minor investment of pool. Yeah, I think that's a common error. p113, SR3 has this to say: "To determine the outcome of an attack, compare the successes rolled by the attacker and the target. If the attacker’s successes exceed the target’s, the attacker can raise the base damage of the weapon. The base damage increases by one Damage Level for every two successes the attacker rolls over the target’s total, up to Deadly damage. If the target’s successes exceed the attacker’s, the target can stage down the weapon’s base Damage Level by one for every two successes the target rolls over the attacker’s total." (Random fact: the hyphenated prefix "suc-" appears 43 times in the SR3 core book. Mostly as part of "successes", though there are some variants) ~J |
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#30
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 227 ![]() |
Yeah, the Elf's 2 body scares me; Body is the target number for spells like "powerbolt", which are actually pretty common spell types in the written adventures. (PC Mages can use them to take out other mages, since they have lower Body than Will.) Having a stat that lets a mage hit you with a no-armor, no-dodge damging spell using a really low TN is... bad.
Its not to hard to get the Elf's body up to an acceptable level, I guess, but since you are gonna be spending points there anyhow... |
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
(PC Mages can use [physical combat spells] to take out other mages, since they have lower Body than Will.) Between Drain and Spell Defense, the mage would be better off with a rifle. QUOTE Yeah, the Elf's 2 body scares me; Body is the target number for spells like "powerbolt", which are actually pretty common spell types in the written adventures. […] Having a stat that lets a mage hit you with a no-armor, no-dodge damging spell using a really low TN is... bad. Face your fears! Spell Defense takes care of that, since the Drain is nasty enough to keep Force down for typical opponents. If you lack that protection you're vulnerable, sure, but only if someone actually braves the Drain for it, actually casts it at you, and actually manages to still be moving by the time it's their turn. QUOTE Its not to hard to get the Elf's body up to an acceptable level, I guess, but since you are gonna be spending points there anyhow... Ah, but you'll do it post-chargen when it's cheap (did I mention I need to switch to BeCKS?). ~J |
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#32
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
So I realized today that the speedsam build reflected less on the acceptability of Orks and more on the fact that Elves are worse than I gave them credit for. Consider:
128 BP Dwarf BOD: 2 QCK: 11 STR: 3 CHR: 3 INT: 9 WIL: 7 ESS: 1.00 BIO: 3.00 REA: 17+4d6 Combat Pool: 13 Edges/Flaws: Exceptional Attribute: QCK Bonus Attribute Point: INT Good Reputation 2 Skills: Pistols 6 Assault Rifles 6 Stealth 6 Electronics 6 Etiquette 3 1,000,000¥ Cyberware: (500,000¥) Wired Reflexes 3 (5) Bioware: (250,000¥) Enhanced Artwinkulation (0.6) Muscle Toner 4 (1.6) Brain-Meats (0.8) 12 BP, 250,000¥ left over. So we give up nothing but Running Multiplier compared to the Elf, we still move 22 meters/turn at a run (faster than a Quickness 7 non-Dwarf runner—we also walk faster than a typical human runs), we gain thermovision and a point of Combat Pool, and we can buy up to equal the Ork's Body while being only two remaining BP behind him if Body 2 is really a problem. Standard gear will be more expensive, but only a little bit. So yeah, I guess when I say "Elves make good Speedsams", I really mean "Night Ones". ~J |
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#33
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 227 ![]() |
SR3 character generation is rather kind when it comes to dwarfs, yes. Again, it partly goes to their relative (un)popularity in SR2, and in SR3 playtester groups (which was a pretty big cross section). Before SR3, you rarely saw them outside the roles of mages / shamans, or maybe riggers / deckers.
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#34
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 873 Joined: 16-September 10 Member No.: 19,052 ![]() |
Yeah, that's the generous interpretation—it hinges on the interpretation of the Layering Armor section as to whether you're restricted to two layers or whether you simply halve every layer after the first. Our interpretation of canon restricts to two layers. Jacket plus longcoat does get you to seven, though, I'd forgotten that (despite taking both items in the example loadouts for weight above!). The extra two points of armor makes a decent difference—ten Body dice against a 12S+1 attack on 7 armor gives about a 2% chance of full soak, while getting up to 9 armor puts you at about 56%. I do believe we've found the source of our differing valuations of Body. For Encumbrance, FFBA does indeed not count towards Combat Pool loss or Quickness penalties. Hmm. If your group sees it that way... well. It really mostly shifts the focus of the game. With more armour, the GM will just use less pistols, and more other weapons. In a game where players have very little armour it wouldn't make sense to break out the big guns very often. QUOTE Sure, it's easy to get it. It's harder to get it without putting big holes in it first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (Though as a GM I haven't played Security Armor as that common. That may be a mistake on my part.) That very much depends on your game. In most of the games I've played in, those where security armour was common, a lot of weapons were largely useless, unless you packed them with APDS. That's... sort of not right, either. In the games I've GMed, I've mostly equipped the mooks with those standard Camo-suits or armour jackets. That way the focus shifted down again. Personally I'm all for a balance. However, the funny thing is, in SR3 it should be frightfully easy to pose as security personel, since you don't have broadcast an ID on your commlink all the time. QUOTE Yeah, I think that's a common error. p113, SR3 has this to say: "To determine the outcome of an attack, compare the successes rolled by the attacker and the target. If the attacker’s successes exceed the target’s, the attacker can raise the base damage of the weapon. The base damage increases by one Damage Level for every two successes the attacker rolls over the target’s total, up to Deadly damage. If the target’s successes exceed the attacker’s, the target can stage down the weapon’s base Damage Level by one for every two successes the target rolls over the attacker’s total." (Random fact: the hyphenated prefix "suc-" appears 43 times in the SR3 core book. Mostly as part of "successes", though there are some variants) ~J Well... what can I say. You're probably right. However, I like the separation between attack and defense tests, and damage resistance tests. So... if I were to go back to playing SR3, I would probably stick to our method. |
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#35
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 ![]() |
I think Orcs are fine... underused a bit perhaps, but the body boost is quite nice. Elves, however, are much weaker. Either drop them down to D priority, or give them some other bonus (boosted skill points due to having been around longer, perhaps?).
JaronK |
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#36
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 873 Joined: 16-September 10 Member No.: 19,052 ![]() |
I think Orcs are fine... underused a bit perhaps, but the body boost is quite nice. Elves, however, are much weaker. Either drop them down to D priority, or give them some other bonus (boosted skill points due to having been around longer, perhaps?). JaronK Well... guess why they are underused? They are underwhelming, that's that. |
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#37
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,547 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 ![]() |
I've never had any problem with elves. They cater to the people who are too cool to care. I've also never had any problem with dwarves. They cater to the people who are too mathematically inclined to care. Funny enough, I've never had much trouble with orks either. They seem to cater to the 'too new to the system' to care. And trolls just get picked up by the looney.
I would tend to say that yes, the Ork does need a special vision type, definitely. It needs to either drop the penalty to intelligence, or get a serious bonus elsewhere (perhaps some 'free' armor, a +1/1 as natural armor?) The troll could be a little more rounded. I'm not sure how though. Maybe a bonus to Willpower? |
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#38
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
QUOTE And trolls just get picked up by the looney. Hey! I resemble that remark! *snickers* |
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#39
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
(boosted skill points due to having been around longer, perhaps?). Most of them haven't, is the problem. Despite the theoretical multiple-century lifespan, the overwhelming majority of Elves are (as of 2064) younger than 55 years old, and even the Spike Babies mostly only add another decade or two to that. I've never had any problem with elves. They cater to the people who are too cool to care. […] Funny enough, I've never had much trouble with orks either. They seem to cater to the 'too new to the system' to care. And trolls just get picked up by the looney. I think you've previously described your group as usually having mostly new players, which would certainly cause some of these effects. It may be that my assumption that "new players will only be new briefly" is flawed due to drift between systems, but nevertheless I just can't get behind "people take them because they don't know better" as a justification of the status quo. QUOTE I would tend to say that yes, the Ork does need a special vision type, definitely. It needs to either drop the penalty to intelligence, or get a serious bonus elsewhere (perhaps some 'free' armor, a +1/1 as natural armor?) The Ork currently gets low-light; I agree with dropping the INT penalty, but the armor idea seems to horn in on Troll territory (and is in fact better, since Troll dermal armor is only +1 Soak dice). QUOTE The troll could be a little more rounded. I'm not sure how though. Maybe a bonus to Willpower? That's a very interesting idea. I still think kicking the INT penalty down to -1 is necessary, but together with a bonus to Willpower a Troll Mage might suddenly be viable. I need to scribble down a bunch of possible proposals and playtest them. ~J |
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#40
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Ok, some ideas that I'm going to playtest when I get time, with my comments on them (feedback appreciated; some of these will be repeats of the above).
Human:
Elf:
Dwarf:
Troll:
Ork:
~J |
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#41
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 ![]() |
Trolls already have that nice advantage that they can wield two handed guns in one hand with no penalty, which can be very nice if used right (even just holding a large riot shield gives them a big melee advantage even while shooting). The one thing I'd consider giving them is the ability to wield two handed melee weapons in one hand without penalty (right now it's a +1TN penalty), which would make stuff like a troll with a Riot Shield and Bayonetted Rifle brutal as a shooter and in melee. Note that trolls already have a huge astral combat advantage (reach) so they're not bad already. I've definitely seen a number of trolls out there.
Giving Orcs +1 Str and no Int penalty would certainly be solid. And I like the idea of modifying humans... that karma pool thing REALLY pays off in the long run (I have a 150+ Karma human, and the 15 pool dice is insane if used well). I like the idea of giving elves perceptive advantages. I don't think it's enough though. JaronK |
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#42
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Trolls already have that nice advantage that they can wield two handed guns in one hand with no penalty, which can be very nice if used right (even just holding a large riot shield gives them a big melee advantage even while shooting). Huh. Good call, I completely missed that one. QUOTE The one thing I'd consider giving them is the ability to wield two handed melee weapons in one hand without penalty (right now it's a +1TN penalty), which would make stuff like a troll with a Riot Shield and Bayonetted Rifle brutal as a shooter and in melee. Also -1 Power. Still, they sorta have this already—they'll outReach non-Troll opponents by at least one point, so their penalty will cancel with a point of the Reach bonus, keeping offensive TN capped at 4. Not paying the penalty would make this role even stronger, but mostly the melee part which I don't really think Trolls are lacking for. On the other hand, the build does still rely on things that are very obvious—I think it's an improvement, but I'm still not satisfied with Trolls. QUOTE Note that trolls already have a huge astral combat advantage (reach) so they're not bad already. I've definitely seen a number of trolls out there. Yeah, but (ironically) they have a hard time damaging anything due to their Charisma penalties. Well, that and their general unsuitability for anything magic-related. Which brings me back around to the bonus Willpower proposal. I'll have to try making some Troll mages with that—I think it might be the way to look, since the halved-recoil proposal stacks with the riot shield build in ways that might be overpowering (Troll with bayonetted HMG ahoy!). QUOTE And I like the idea of modifying humans... that karma pool thing REALLY pays off in the long run (I have a 150+ Karma human, and the 15 pool dice is insane if used well). I don't so much mind the size in and of itself—I still haven't decided whether to make everyone gain KP per 10 karma or per 20 yet. The big problem is that the human has 16 (remember the initial point) and the meta has 8; the human can afford to do a triple reroll and two single rerolls and have the same amount of KP the meta starts with. A secondary result of this is that it becomes harder to balance runs. I think large KP is one of the best things about high-level Shadowrun—they're like Combat Pool writ large, enabling characters to take on bigger and harder and more complex runs and having some control over what they're willing to fail at that isn't just "don't try hard things". The aforementioned affect causes a situation where the human can afford to take significantly more chances than the meta. QUOTE I like the idea of giving elves perceptive advantages. I don't think it's enough though. I agree. I'm at a loss for alternatives, though; even in light of the revealed mediocrity of the Elven Speedsam I'm hesitant to give them more Quickness, Charisma doesn't help, none of the other attributes seem to fit thematically, none of the other Edges seem like good fits, and I don't have any creative ideas. If someone has thoughts, though… ~J |
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#43
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 ![]() |
I don't see much wrong with trolls. They're good bruisers and they're tough. That's what they're there for, and they seem to do a decent job. Orcs are likewise decent, though perhaps underpowered simply because dwarfs are so good. But elves... they definitely need some help. Quickness and Charisma can both be very valuable stats (Charisma is AMAZING if you summon things). But they just don't have enough to justify being the same cost as trolls.
Still, I like the skill bump idea because elves should be generally older by the time they're running. An elf is in his prime around 40 years old... a human around 20. If elves got double skill points and a -1 perception TN mod, they'd be quite good indeed. JaronK |
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#44
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
I don't see much wrong with trolls. They're good bruisers and they're tough. That's what they're there for, and they seem to do a decent job. Yeah, but I'd really like them to not be just bruisers, especially given how far out of its way their section in Game Concepts goes in trying to say that they aren't. Scary thought: Troll with heavy armor, riot shield, balance tail or balance augmentation (depending on how important the ability to suddenly drop prone is considered), trauma damper, and a bayonetted assault cannon. Granted each shot carries a small but nontrivial chance of being knocked to the ground (though one reading of the relevant rules suggests that if the recoil is fully compensated zero successes are necessary, avoiding that), but you've got a Reach 2 melee weapon, give attackers with less than Reach 2 +2 against you in melee before reach mods, can have up to +3 Ballistic armor from a Ballistic Riot Shield, and can dish out 18D to targets out to nearly two and a half kilometers away. All you need is a friendly Rigger with an appropriately-modified not-too-obvious vehicle that you can deploy from and escape via. ~J |
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#45
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 ![]() |
...Yeah, we kinda already have guys like that. Though usually not the assault cannon, as that's overkill. While they're deadly as heck, a character like that makes a lot of noise, so we generally try to avoid that. As such, it's nasty, but not something we like to use. Let's face it, a human can be just as deadly (though you can't pull off the shield + bayonetted gun trick).
Honestly, that's why we see few trolls in our games... they're just not stealthy enough in general. And let's face it, you can be scary as heck in combat without being a troll. I think in a more kick in the door sort of game, or a game taking place where stealth is less important (the barrens, the desert wars, etc) a troll would be a lot more useful. JaronK |
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#46
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
The key, I think, is a good Rigger and team coordination. It seems that a Troll equipped like that could emerge from a hollowed-out Americar, utterly devastate the lobby and first round of reinforcements at a target site, and then retreat and vanish with Rigger help, all while the team escapes from accomplishing the real target in the confusion. The chief challenge seems to be that deployment timing is key, so the player would end up waiting on everyone else a lot.
(Well, that and the fact that it's still risky—this build can bounce a lot of AP rounds, but just one AP-loaded M/HMG or sniper rifle can cause day-ruining, and while those are rare they're also catastrophic enough to be bad even at fractional-percent likelihood) ~J |
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#47
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 ![]() |
The big issue is that in more stealth oriented games, that troll decoy thing would be a backup plan. It's real simple... he just waits in a cheap van (possibly even stolen) nearby, and if the team needs him he jumps out and makes chaos. But if things go smooth that player never does anything.
You don't even need really big guns... a 9S Hunting Rifle with APDS rounds is a lot cheaper and easier to get than an Assault Rifle, can be quieter when needed, and gets the job done against the vast majority of enemies. And for a troll, it's basically a pistol. The other "troll pistol" we've used is a sawed off SPAS... conceal 6 when you need it, plenty of damage. JaronK |
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#48
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
In the really stealth-oriented games ("you were never here"), sure. I've found that the ordinary stealth-oriented games are that way for self-preservation, and that making a big bang on the way out to speed up exfiltration can be worthwhile.
As for the rifle, it itself is easier to get but once you make the test for the weapon it's 5/3 days for more assault cannon ammo as opposed to 14/14 days for more APDS. Granted, it's still cheaper. The other thing is that the assault cannon remains useful against lightly-to-moderately-armored vehicles, while the rifle-user is forced to upgrade to AV ammo for the job which is once again harder to get (admittedly still cheaper, but only by 100¥/10 after Street Index). Making a one-time high-avail roll is easy; just give it a shot the instant you start the campaign and keep trying every chance you get. It's impractical for the Troll to do it by himself (still only 60% chance of success if he takes Charisma and Etiquette 4 and Good Rep 2 and keeps trying for 20 weeks), but a few socially-competent characters working on the problem can make it go smoothly—assuming a team total of 20 points of Etiquette with Good Reputation, they have a better than 90% chance of having the cannon within 10 weeks. After that, it's 5/3 days for Assault Cannon ammo (and 6/3 days for a belt of 100!). The rifle-user, meanwhile, needs to go through nearly the same ordeal (exactly the same for AV) every time he needs to get more ammo. ~J |
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#49
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 873 Joined: 16-September 10 Member No.: 19,052 ![]() |
You don't even need really big guns... a 9S Hunting Rifle with APDS rounds is a lot cheaper and easier to get than an Assault Rifle, can be quieter when needed, and gets the job done against the vast majority of enemies. And for a troll, it's basically a pistol. The other "troll pistol" we've used is a sawed off SPAS... conceal 6 when you need it, plenty of damage. JaronK Heh, that brings up memories. In one campaign I played - actually the first I've ever played - some part of a group were doing an extraction from an Arcology, and my silenced sporter equipped sniper was sitting outside in his car. When they were threatened to get caught on the way out, I hit the guys in the guard towers with APDS rounds to stop them from machine-gunning the entire crew. I just narrowly got away from being machine-gunned myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . That guy was also a Dwarf, by the way. For no other reason than that the Priority system was used, and he was mundane. |
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#50
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 ![]() |
Assault Cannons are still good, I just think they're a bit of overkill. But hey, if you've got the money to spend and REALLY don't care about noise, go nuts. I just prefer having silenceable weapons!
Either way, I think trolls are very solid in games where you throw down a lot. They need a good bit of quickness (Quickened Increase Quickness, at a reasonable force, can rapidly get them up there) to wear some nice armor (Heavy Milispec if you can get it, Heavy Security Armor + FFFBA if not), but then they can just play wrecking crew. But in games I've played, doing so gets SWAT, Knight Errant Spec Ops, and all kinds of other nasty stuff headed your way really fast. JaronK |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 8th July 2025 - 05:29 PM |
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