If he's going to fuck with me while I'm in VR it most certainly is. I've revised, now BH please edit. And no, I the person misread it. Thought the get out part also applied to the van.

I'm just going to pull things over right here.

The team is just too dysfunctional, and I've ceased to have any fun watching you bicker with one another - in character or not. So I'll say this now: You can babble on in IC or OOC as long as you feel the need, but I won't be advancing the plot any myself for a couple of days IRL. If, at that time, I feel like I can salvage something, great. If not, it was fun while it lasted, and maybe we can pick something else up with a little better character design to allow for some real team play.

Dude, you asked me to edit, and then responded to my old post before I could. You need to calm down, and give other people a chance to post.

Also, this.

I don't blame you, JP.

I just wanted his plan. He didn't give me one.....

Oh, well, that makes it alright then. /sarcasm

Well at this point, Riots done talking. And probably not going to work with Wolf again in the future. So we can figure that out after the runs over.

The run? I think the game's over.

No he said Riot and Wolf need to figure out how to get along, which based on the events of the past mission and a half, probably isn't going to happen. But Riot's relinquished any leadership. So Wolf can lead on.

And I can roll up a new character after the run.

Alright. Let's leave the IC thread where it is and give JP some time to think about it.

I don't want to speak for JP, but I have to say that if left in the state it is in, currently, *I* wouldn't assume that the game is salvageable if I came back and reread it a few days from now.

What would you want to see changed?

Agreed. What I really meant was lets stay out of IC until things are worked out.

Well it seems that the fact that we're a collection of random ass people has put us at odds with one another. In most of my games, I have a group template were all the PCs are interrelated somehow. Tends to avoid these personality rubs.

As far as character personalities go...Riot's had enough of trying to corral everyone. He's effectively stepping down as the leader. Wolf will have to do some pretty cool shit to prove himself...because in as far as Riot's concerned, he's been more of a hinderance than a help thus far. So the strongwilled, take charge attitude is gone...and that should reduce further friction.

If it were me running the game, I would want to see that my players came to a resolution on their own - and were respectful OOC - and that the resolution was a long term solution, and not just "well, let's get through this one run together, and see where things stand." I say that, because, as a GM, I wouldn't want the underlying issues to just come up again on the next run, and end up overseeing another argument about the very same thing a few weeks later.

I am cool with putting the IC on ice for a while, while we talk about it OOC, but my hopes of us coming up with a solid resolution to all of this are not high.

As it stands, JP had only planned to run one team through these missions, but he went out of his way to run a second team because he got a lot more interest than he expected. Even if they are modules, he's had to put a lot of time and energy into the game, and if he's not having fun with the second team, it makes sense for him to let it go and focus on the work he signed up for, not the team that was basically a favor to us in the first place.

If your plan for reducing attitude is prefaced by the fact that your character thinks another character is a liability, and needs to prove himself, then nothing is resolved. Someone will make a call, and you'll disagree with it, in character, just like some of us disagreed with some of Riot's calls, in character, previously.

I guess I should have prefaced, this is how Riot is currently viewing the situation.

It might be beneficial to have everyone post up in the OOC what their IC feelings are of each character...that way we can isolate the issues and deal with them.

Now that I think of it, its really just the two alpha males syndrome...

Edit - Also, I'm cool with any revision to Riot. In RL, I like playing with you guys, I think the banter is fun. But its getting over the top for sure now.

Kreskin was the only one who saw Riot as the leader anyway, so it doesn't even change much.

and that is why we failed....

Edit - or well to be specific, no one recognized any leader, and therefore we failed. If another PC would have stepped and proved a solid leader, then Riot would have followed.

Just quoted the rest of it, as, while I agree with the rest of it, that sentence is what we need to focus on if we are going to salvage it. Which I'd like to.

Most of the problems seem to be IC personality conflicts. I do think Klink needs to have a little more patience, as I've mentioned previously, but other than that..

Wolf and Riot clearly don't get along, although I'm not sure what Wolf has done for Riot to think he's a liability. Wolf on the other hand, considers Kim a liability but hasn't, I believe, let that get in the way of the mission and had an opportunity come up for her to prove otherwise, would have happily revised his opinion. Kim considers both the orks stupid, Kreskin seems to get on with everyone and Doc possibly hates everyone.

Point 1 = I agree

Point 2 = I can work on the patience, I just have a really easy job

Point 3 = Thats a pretty good summation. I don't think Wolf is a liability, I think Angel is too. Riot's opinion of Wolf is that for being the team's "muscle" he's always 180 degrees the opposite direction of Riot, he doesn't seem to understand Riots a crass, go ganger who is going to curse and swear, and since he's "muscle" he's a dime a dozen and there's plenty of other street sam's out there that would be more enjoyable to work with. The problem is, without any fights, I haven't seen Wolf do anything useful. He's only tried to counter anything Riot's said or done. I think we need a scene were Angel does somethign really fucking cool to prove her worth. And Wolf needs to beat someone's ass (which is why I wanted to raid the Black Cats) to give some people a chance to shine. As of right now, I can only think of one cool thing any of us has done, and that was Riot backing the truck into the Yaks and Triads and making an escape.

Kreskin just saw that the team needed a leader (every team does, since anarchy and democracy doesn't work mid-run), and desperately didn't want that to be him (he didn't want the responsibility or the burden). So when Riot took some initiative (rolling leadership checks early on), he recognized that Riot had the makings of a leader, and tried to suggest as much, figuring he could just sort of advise him from the side (a pretty good situation, for him, and out of the lime-light). Worked well enough, but like he said in character a few times when Riot ignored his suggestions, it only works as long as Kresken can trust the leader to make the right calls - and near the end, Riot's judgment was in question a few times.

That basically sums up why I am not confident that there will be an elegant solution.

Every team needs a leader, because otherwise there will never be a cohesive plan, and people will be getting in one another's way - or doing things that the other people wish they wouldn't (and when you work together, your reputations are tied). You can't really function as a democracy, either, because nobody will ever agree, and the team will spend 80% of its time arguing about the various options. They need to be able to trust that leader to make good calls. They don't have to agree with every single call that guy makes, but when he makes a decision, they need to get in line and see it through, not call him crazy, and threaten to go home with their expense money, or pushing another plan. Having a leader that nobody listens to is basically the same as not having any leader at all.

Our problem is, there isn't anyone in our team that everyone else trusts to make the right calls - which isn't surprising, since we all met OOC and IC at the start of the previous run. I'd be surprised if there was anyone that anyone trusted to do that, and I'm pretty sure all of the PCs are the sorts of people who will maintain that they know best, even if they don't, sometimes.

That leads to situations like the one we have here, where we don't agree on what to do next, and probably never will. We can't force anyone to follow a plan they don't agree with, but the team is never going to all agree on a single plan (at least not without weeks of debate, which isn't fun). We don't have anyone with the authority to solve the impasse, and even if we did, the team would probably resent being overruled, rather than willing to make the best of the alternative plan.

So, the gist of it is that Riot thinks he is the only one who has done anything awesome, and that everyone else is replaceable, or a freeloader?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. If Riot doesn't respect his team, they're not going to follow him, and he isn't going to follow any of them.

I'm talking OOC, not IC. We've been efficient and effective....perhaps a slightly boring.

IC-wise: Kreskin got a grenade launcher - that was pretty cool....but thats about it...can you think of anything?

There are, as I see it, 2 possible leaders from the current characters, Kreskin and Wolf.

Kreskin would perhaps be the only person acceptable to everyone, with the exception of Kreskin.

As far as Wolf goes, I think Kreskin would accept him, Riot would be ambivalent and Kim would be going from one stupid ork to another. Doc I don't believe would be too bothered as long as she got paid and didn't get stupidly injured.