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Mäx
post Jan 31 2011, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 31 2011, 05:45 PM) *
Reflex Recorder for Perception.

As its an actual skill increase, it doesn't stack with the level 3 increased ability power.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 31 2011, 03:58 PM
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That's the point. It's meant to stop Joe 1+1 from boosting his DP to 40, I assume. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Makki, I've wanted a nice rule like that, too, but none of the simple rules seem to satisfy. I think we *do* want people to be able to boost their DP a fair bit (Shadowrun is about how good gear matters a lot), but we also want them to not rely on gear 100%. The simple rules don't accomplish these goals nicely enough. :/
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Bull
post Jan 31 2011, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 31 2011, 10:39 AM) *
Actually no, Fomori Ghoul with exceptional attribute body has a natural max of 16 for Body.
For other attributes the maximum possible natural max is 9 + racial modifiers (for example elfs natural charisma max is 11)


No, it's 6+racial mod. Anything above that is Augmented, i.e. non-natural. And see my second post... I'm not a big fan of the Runners Companion stuff, as it was, IMO, poorly thought out, porly tested, and poorly implemented in a lot of cases.

QUOTE
I think its kinda stupid rule and makes lots of equipment in the game totally pointless.


Eh, it puts an emphasis back on skill and your natural ability. You can still get quite a hefty bonus from equipment (Even if you have minimal skill and attribute, you can still get up to a 20 DP), and extra dice are still useful to offset penalties, as the DP Cap is after penalties are applied.

Really, the only thing this rule does is shut down the uber-cheesemonkey players who are absolutely trying to maximize their Dice Pools to get 40+ dice. That's not a bad thing, IMO. UNless of course you WANT to play a game like that, in which case all the players should be building toward that, and you simply don't use the optional rule.

Simple and elegant, no?

Bull
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Makki
post Jan 31 2011, 04:12 PM
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I think I gonna try my Skill x4 idea in my new group. Skill is supposed to represent the knowledge of how to use the gear as well. maybe...It only really hinders ranks 0-2 (i'll handle defaulting as lvl1)
QUOTE (SR4A)
Rating 1: Beginner
Has done this a few times. Can handle some easy tasks, some of the time.

that should equal a dp of 4 very well
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Bull
post Jan 31 2011, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Makki @ Jan 31 2011, 11:12 AM) *
I think I gonna try my Skill x4 idea in my new group. Skill is supposed to represent the knowledge of how to use the gear as well. maybe...It only really hinders ranks 0-2


That's an interesting idea. Let us know how it works.
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Doc Chase
post Jan 31 2011, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Jan 31 2011, 04:15 PM) *
That's an interesting idea. Let us know how it works.


Skillx4 makes an effective cap of 28 with Aptitude, 24 without the quality, generally 20 for most of the folks?
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Mäx
post Jan 31 2011, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Jan 31 2011, 06:11 PM) *
No, it's 6+racial mod. Anything above that is Augmented, i.e. non-natural.

No, it 9+racial mod.
Exceptional attribute,Metagenetic improvement and Genetic Optimization all raise the natural attribute maximum.

QUOTE (Bull @ Jan 31 2011, 06:11 PM) *
and extra dice are still useful to offset penalties, as the DP Cap is after penalties are applied.

Well ruling it like that does make it a little better rule, as atleast you can use the extra equipments to offset penalties, meaning that whole lot of gear doesn't become totally pointless to have in the game.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 31 2011, 04:21 PM
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Makki, I think you're right about Skill 0-2, and I certainly agree with the 'know how to use gear effectively' point. If you protect Defaulting, that goes a long way toward fixing things. How does this affect Attributes? Does skill 1, attribute 6 still get capped at 4? If so, (and it's not necessarily a bad thing) that really alters the whole augmentation equation.

There's very little gear that's 'totally pointless'. Hehe.
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Bull
post Jan 31 2011, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jan 31 2011, 11:16 AM) *
Skillx4 makes an effective cap of 28 with Aptitude, 24 without the quality, generally 20 for most of the folks?


Yup. But theoretical math and Actual Play are two different things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull
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Bull
post Jan 31 2011, 04:29 PM
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[quote name='Mäx' date='Jan 31 2011, 11:21 AM' post='1038280']
No, it 9+racial mod.
Exceptional attribute,Metagenetic improvement and Genetic Optimization all raise the natural attribute maximum.[quote]

Ahh, yeah, good point. I'm just dealing with the basics here. Of course, all of that is expensive amounts of cheese-monkery.

Of course, I rarely bother trying to max out this stuff. Most of my characters tend to hit about 16 dice in their core skills and I stop bothering to cheese out further there, as they tend to be scarily effective at that range already. <shrug>

Bull
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Doc Chase
post Jan 31 2011, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Jan 31 2011, 04:26 PM) *
Yup. But theoretical math and Actual Play are two different things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull


Egh, don't remind me. I get more critical glitches on eight dice than I do on three.
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Quake
post Jan 31 2011, 09:50 PM
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Calling everything "cheese" is easy, but not very constructive. Cheese (AFAIK) refers to a cheap abusive option that's either absurd or detrimental to the game.

All aforementioned options are quite expensive to add up, and maxing out an attribute is not free either :

BP : 20 (metagenetic, comes with anactual increase) +25 (maxing an attribute) +20 (exceptionnal attribute) +20 (two points of attribute paid, for neither geneware or exceptionnal attr increase the score) + geneware that costs essence

94 points (counting nuyen but not essence) spent to go from 5 (soft-maxed) to 9 (hard-maxed). This is much more than twice the standard cost. Sure a high AGI score (for ex.) is mighty useful and synergistic, but you severely limited yourself from the get go by trying to max it out. The opportunity cost is too terribly high.

Player's that choose to focus on an attribute should be judged on end results (i.e. playable characters that enhances the in-game experience of everyone at the table), and not on components... especially for such a high cost.

Cheesy ? I don't really think so. I can easily imagine a prototype character that could feasibly have such a maxed attribute.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 31 2011, 09:51 PM
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I think Bull noted that it was expensive in that very sentence, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Per your suggested standard of judgment, it's probably *not* the case that one person who automatically beats all forms of stealth/etc. "enhances the in-game experience of everyone". It is a thread about theoretical optimization for the sake of playing with numbers, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Quake
post Jan 31 2011, 09:57 PM
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With the incredible DP for Perception we're seeing here, it certainly feels like Stealth is in need of help though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 31 2011, 10:01 PM
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Indeed. Look at the Perception thresholds and modifiers: max Threshold is only 4 (literally invisible/silent), and I guess the max penalty is Far Away, Interfering Sense, while Distracted, while using VR (!), and Blinded (for vision). That's -19. The most dice you'd need 'on average' to pull off this maximally-impossible Perception is 31, without Edge.
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Makki
post Jan 31 2011, 10:16 PM
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since infiltration vs perception is an opposed test, one should now start to max out Infiltration...
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Doc Chase
post Jan 31 2011, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 31 2011, 10:01 PM) *
Indeed. Look at the Perception thresholds and modifiers: max Threshold is only 4 (literally invisible/silent), and I guess the max penalty is Far Away, Interfering Sense, while Distracted, while using VR (!), and Blinded (for vision). That's -19. The most dice you'd need 'on average' to pull off this maximally-impossible Perception is 31, without Edge.



How many NPC's are going to have this kind of pool against the characters, though? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The mooks almost always have numerical superiority to even the odds, so they wouldn't have to sneak as often. Or at all.
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Mardrax
post Jan 31 2011, 11:57 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 1 2011, 12:01 AM) *
Indeed. Look at the Perception thresholds and modifiers: max Threshold is only 4 (literally invisible/silent), and I guess the max penalty is Far Away, Interfering Sense, while Distracted, while using VR (!), and Blinded (for vision). That's -19. The most dice you'd need 'on average' to pull off this maximally-impossible Perception is 31, without Edge.


Don't forget Concealment. And perceiver-side wound penalties, Disorientation, possibly even sustaining spells, and being in a spam zone.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 1 2011, 02:48 AM
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I was trying to be serious, Mardrax. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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toturi
post Feb 1 2011, 03:32 AM
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As I have stated before, there can be a lot of negative modifiers for Perception, just as there are positive modifiers for it. In practice, with such a high dice pool, the player isn't really interested in having his character noticing every little detail a normal everyday situation; he is more interested in spotting that Concealed (as in Concealment), Invisible, Rutherium clothed sniper that has 16+ dice pool of his own.

Seen in this context, it isn't such a big deal that Perception dice can hit 40+. It becomes essential to have such a large dice pool.
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Raiki
post Feb 1 2011, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 31 2011, 10:32 PM) *
[The character] is more interested in spotting that Concealed (as in Concealment), Invisible, Rutherium clothed sniper that has 16+ dice pool of his own.

Seen in this context, it isn't such a big deal that Perception dice can hit 40+. It becomes essential to have such a large dice pool.



It's never possible to see the GodsHammer coming. I mean, really, at that point wouldn't a Thor shot get the message across faster?




~R~
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toturi
post Feb 1 2011, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (Raiki @ Feb 1 2011, 11:36 AM) *
It's never possible to see the GodsHammer coming. I mean, really, at that point wouldn't a Thor shot get the message across faster?

~R~

The point is that not every sniper is GodsHammer. If the GM is resorting to a Thor shot, it would be better to simply talk to the player instead.
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Raiki
post Feb 1 2011, 04:29 AM
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My point was that if your GM is throwing an invisible, concealed, chameleon-coated sniper with 16 dice in infiltration at you, he doesn't want to negotiate and he doesn't want you to survive. He's either just killing you off, or he's knocking you out for some kind of forced scene.

::shrug:: Though I suppose this could just be a massive difference in play style/power level. I have yet to see a runner at my table who could survive more than one or two sniper rounds, but maybe the players at your table have the ability to take it and live. Either way, no offense intended. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


~R~
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 1 2011, 05:37 AM
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It's a valid point: the GM would never send anything that required a 40 Perception unless the player *had* a 40 Perception, or it was a railroad. Either way, the player has stupidized the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Incidentally, I thought it was decided that you can just close your eyes and get rid of all the penalties from Visibility, Invisibility, Ruthenium, (not Concealment, cuz it's unexplained magic), etc.? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In any case, the Perception bonuses do seem to go vastly higher than the opposed Infiltration from this theoretical sniper.
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toturi
post Feb 1 2011, 06:03 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 1 2011, 01:37 PM) *
Either way, the player has stupidized the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

How did the player stupidized the game when it is the GM that wants to pull a railroad?

This also assumes that the GM somehow scales the opposition to meet the PCs' capabilities. If the GM simply stats out the opposition to what would be sent against the PCs according to the resources and motivations of the NPCs, the GM could send such a sniper even if the PCs have no chance of spotting him even if the GM wasn't railroading his players.
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