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> How do Technomancers and sprites do what they do?, Or, I Have Inquisitive Players
TheMadderHatter
post Feb 3 2011, 01:20 AM
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So the group I'm running SR4 for consists of a technomancer, an AI, and a mundane(technically) hacker. All of them are fairly inquisitive out-of-character and interested in the lore, and this is reflected in-character as an introspective streak among all of them, along with a historical/scientific smattering of Knowledges concerning AIs, Matrix phenomena, and so forth, and they've begun asking relatively reasonable questions as to how the technomancer functions in the hopes of better integrating his abilities with the others.

Unfortunately, I'm not terribly well versed in SR4 Matrix lore, particularly on the two topics above. Thus I have to ask: Insofar as has been revealed, how do TMs have a commlink in their head that lets them make/summon sprites and enter Matrix-type spaces that aren't the Matrix?
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CanRay
post Feb 3 2011, 01:27 AM
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The answer in universe: "We don't know. But we'll keep cutting into TM heads until we find out!"

The metagaming answer: "We don't know. Yet."

I put it down to "Tele-Pathetic Powers". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Mardrax
post Feb 3 2011, 01:30 AM
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Magic.
Sorry, Resonance. The same handwavium applies though.

Read up on Emergence if you're interested in Technomancer (and AI) background outside of the core book. It's a great big 122 page fluff book on both subjects, and their coming out into the world from an unknown to a somewhat accepted part of society.

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sabs
post Feb 3 2011, 01:32 AM
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The short answer is..

Lets use the magic rules for technomancers so we don't have to think too hard.
But.. the matrix rules and magic rules aren't even on the same scale..
who cares!

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CanRay
post Feb 3 2011, 01:34 AM
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The guys that can throw fireballs around are more accepted than the people who just surf the Matrix with their brains.

That kind of tells you the state of the Sixth World, eh?
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Fatum
post Feb 3 2011, 02:00 AM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 3 2011, 04:30 AM) *
Read up on Emergence if you're interested in Technomancer (and AI) background outside of the core book. It's a great big 122 page fluff book on both subjects, and their coming out into the world from an unknown to a somewhat accepted part of society.

The answer to the question posted is in Core, though, right at the very first sentence of the Technomancers subchapter.
QUOTE (CoreAE p.239)
The neural pathways and brain chemistry of technomancers are such that they can send, receive, and interpret wireless signals, giving them instant access to the wireless Matrix, no electronics or cyberware required. [...] scientists and even magicians are at a loss to explain the exact mechanics of this organic wireless link [...]
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CanRay
post Feb 3 2011, 02:05 AM
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And those scientists and magicians should know, they cut right into the head to look directly at those neural pathways and get access to the brain chemistry.
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Fatum
post Feb 3 2011, 02:33 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 3 2011, 05:05 AM) *
And those scientists and magicians should know, they cut right into the head to look directly at those neural pathways and get access to the brain chemistry.
Hey, that was in the name of science! To further human understanding!
But luckily, now they can fall back to experimenting on animals - there's still a number of mysteries there, for example: why does the e-cockroaches' small size make them less noticeable in the Matrix, hmmmm?
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CanRay
post Feb 3 2011, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Feb 2 2011, 10:33 PM) *
Hey, that was in the name of science! To further human understanding!

"Quit screaming in agony, this is in the name of SCIENCE! MUH-HA-HA-HA!!! Now, does it hurt when I apply electricity to this part of your exposed brain?"

...

Or, as my group put it, "You know you've really hit the moral low ground when the Nazi-Wannabe is telling you it's too much."
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Fatum
post Feb 3 2011, 03:15 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 3 2011, 05:44 AM) *
"Now, does it hurt when I apply electricity to this part of your exposed brain?"
No, there are no nerve centers capable of perceiving pain in the brain.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 3 2011, 03:27 AM
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Nerve *endings*, I thought?
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Fatum
post Feb 3 2011, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 3 2011, 06:27 AM) *
Nerve *endings*, I thought?

...endings. Connecting to centers. You know...
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Mardrax
post Feb 3 2011, 03:19 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 3 2011, 05:27 AM) *
Nerve *endings*, I thought?

Oh, the confusion around pain. Partly correct.

Nerve ending sense a possibly damaging stimulus.
Nerve centers in the brain combine this with emotional input and a bunch of other things to end up in a feeling perceived as pain.
So in that way, yes, there are nerve centers in the brain that perceive pain, there just aren't nerve endings to pick up the potentially damaging stimulus and trasmit it to them.

Nitpicking? Yes. Important distinctions to make? To some. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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CanRay
post Feb 3 2011, 03:29 PM
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Very important to the person whose brain is hanging out in the open air and being poked with electric probes.
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Mardrax
post Feb 3 2011, 04:56 PM
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Do note that while the brain itself may not have any open nerve endings, stimulation of the postcentral gyrus may well result in percieved pain in the rest of the body, while the precentral gyrus may well result in uncontrolable muscle contractions that will likely result in pain as well. Since both lie in the center, on top, are fairly large, and tend to draw attention, these are likely results of random jabbings with electrodes.

*whistle*
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Fatum
post Feb 3 2011, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 3 2011, 07:56 PM) *
Do note that while the brain itself may not have any open nerve endings, stimulation of the postcentral gyrus may well result in percieved pain in the rest of the body, while the precentral gyrus may well result in uncontrolable muscle contractions that will likely result in pain as well. Since both lie in the center, on top, are fairly large, and tend to draw attention, these are likely results of random jabbings with electrodes.

*whistle*
Been cutting up frogs again I see?
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Mardrax
post Feb 3 2011, 06:02 PM
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Naw. I never got to actually cut something up, beside a few chickens and a duck for dinner. Still on my to do list though.
Just helping out with some theoretical knowledge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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CanRay
post Feb 3 2011, 07:22 PM
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I cut up frogs in school, but they stopped letting me play with electricity the third time I zapped myself.

I threw myself a few feet back and think I passed out while sitting up for a few minutes. It was certainly an interesting sensation.
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hyzmarca
post Feb 4 2011, 05:21 PM
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Remember, Otaku were Deus's jailbreak plan. Alter some humans so that their brains can store and run extremely complex and unique computer programs and then distribute his massive artificial intellect amongst his specially modified followers and victims. It worked, too. Other AIs also made their own Otaku, for their own reasons.

Technomancer powers are just an evolution of those extreme neurological alterations, further exacerbated by The Crash 2.0. Deus may be dead, but his legacy does live on.
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CanRay
post Feb 4 2011, 05:47 PM
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And it's just how much of that legacy is alive that has people worried. Who knows, Clockwork might just be right in his over-paranoia about TMs.
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TheOOB
post Feb 6 2011, 01:31 AM
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It's a lot like magic, some of the whats are known, but the why's are left to the individual traditions(or in this case streams). Techomancers just have a lot more whys then magic because there are no ancient legends dealing with it, but reason run from "It's computer magic", to "It's the natural evolution of metahumanity due to exposure to the matrix"

And just like magicians, most people care more about the what's than the whys
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Mardrax
post Feb 6 2011, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE (TheOOB @ Feb 6 2011, 02:31 AM) *
but reason run from "It's computer magic", to "It's the natural evolution of metahumanity due to exposure to the matrix"

That's not quite the way evolution works, or we'd all have had chiptuned internal combustion engines, instead of hearts.

*whistle*
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Summerstorm
post Feb 6 2011, 02:28 AM
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I REALLY don't like the logical flaws of the whole Technomancer-idea. I liked the Otakus, and i like the IDEA of the Technomancer-evolution. But the execution is AWFUL.

For example the way how magic works is based on one principle not yet (or never ) known to metahumanity: There is one rule somehow permeating all tradition, all ways of thinking, binding living people and the world together so that the magician can change the world with his will. Thje whole spirits and spells are fueled by funneled down energy from another world, which is a clear and visitable second one (and many mysteries and "other layers"). If the background count is higher, mana works in weird ways.

All is structured, even if based on unknown principles. There seem to be contradictions but they could be manifestations of the USER.

TECHNOMANCERs on this side clearly violate rules without ANY indication of how this might be possible.
Examples:
Skinlink Echo - CAN NOT WORK. You need to somehow project micromilimeter electric and/or light through casings/ boards and cables into multiple parts of a machine
the trode version even let you do it to a metahuman brain. Sure.. easy.

Sprites are fuled by a magical force clearly not based in the machine realm. Even on a isolated Toaster in a wifi-dead zone they can easily run with a higher power than a logic-boosted human. Where do they get the processing power for that?

I would LOVE to see the technomancer completely cleaned up and give them a clearly defined role as a counterpoint to the mages.

My take on them:

Either through genetic improvement or "magical" or unknown mutation they can send and receive wireless signals and can, if they have one implanted, use a datajack without any ASIST or other Simsense technology. They all develope a Matrix-addiction. They all are faster than hackers. They all can develope powers over their own neuroligy and can program and reprogram their own minds with relative ease. They all can program temporary constructs in their minds (programs /complex forms, and can even copy them, load them up and have them act autonomous (sprites).

All these powers should not violate ANY matrix rules and work just as the Hackers programs and Agents, but are easier and faster to generate and allow for a higher fluidity and customization on the fly.

In the matrix they are, measured against a Hacker with same "powerlevel", a tiny bit faster, sneakier and more perceptive. But more vulnerable.
In the real world they have intuitive knowledge of all wifi-machines around them, have a knack for spoofing/jamming outside of the normal hacking rules and have some mental powers. (They can rewire themselves for mental states, providing extra-dice for some mental tasks, concentration. Fear and interogation resist and even low levels of initiative and perception-enhancements- as well as temporary access to mental qualities) - all for a price: "Drain" - mental exhaustion and even physical effects like cerebral bleeding, fatigued neural structure, or simple "oh my god i crapped that up and rewired my ABILITY TO BREATH"- death.

Some of these enhancements work like cyber/bioware boosts and are hard to aquire and integrate (They need submersions), but are permanent. Cyberware is acceptable, but a lot of systems are reduntant with your own modifications and won't work properly. Headware and Senseware will impact your abilities. Other systems you are able to integrate flawlessly and operate on higher levels than the usual user, but this all needs karma/submersions etc.

Overall: You are the master of your own brain. (And get WIFI as an sweet add-on). Things like the "Streams" or "mystical entities" or the Resonance or Dissonance doesn't have to vanish. More like a VPN between like-minded Technomancers. Distributed programs permeat the whole matrix and help the attuned minds with tasks, fuel them, connect them. It can be mystical, or absolutely logical, depending on the user... like magic. No problem.

As a sidenote: I LOVE the AI's too... but they need some work too.
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Mardrax
post Feb 6 2011, 03:02 AM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Feb 6 2011, 03:28 AM) *
the trode version even let you do it to a metahuman brain. Sure.. easy.

The human body has its own field of electromagnetism. This can be altered. If someone can somehow emit and receive electromagnetic radiation, he can use this radiation to alter his body's electric field. If a device is capable of dealing with this method of interfacing, it doesn't matter wether a device or a technomancer is generating the signal. Devices that aren't naturallly able to do this that still have any components able to conduct eletrical current could theoretically not just be communicated with, but even powered by this field. Anythingthat can conduct eletrical current will have electircal curent generated in it if it is subjected to a changing electromagnetic field.
If trodes and a simrig can induce full or partial sensory and motor override on a living being, so can another living being with the same interfacing capability as the trodes, and the ability to emulate the simrig's software to convert data into a DNI simsense format.
Suspension of disbelief over humans being able to mentally manipulate radio waves should logically include the possibility of skinlink and trode functionality. Said skinlink working on non-skinlink able devices is strange though, I agree, but theoretically possible, given the rest, and some other assumptions made for/about technomancers.

I don't really think technomancers are out of place. Sure, there are a lot of unknows, more so than with mages. Nothing is really contraditory though. And after all, unlike mages,m they've only been out and about for two years.Having unknowns makes sense. This Resonance realm, what is it? Whence does it come? How do Technomancers do what they do, and why are they able to? No one knows, or perhaps someone does. It might break out into the field of common knowledge, it might not. A lot of craniums have been opened. Something needs to have come out of all that applied grey matter.
Time will tell.
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CanRay
post Feb 6 2011, 04:57 AM
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The deep, dark unexplored parts of the Matrix may have the answers...

But few come back from those places, and rarely sane.
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