Morgan Cutlass, Body 16. Should be bigger than a lot of Apartments the rest of the group has. And you can drive away in it.

But you have to admit, the Striker would make an absolutely cherry House Boat... Especially if you got to keep the armaments... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

No, it'd make a great boat boat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Luv the Seacop. Oh, you meant the corvette. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Yus.

Yes, the Celebrian Striker... Mmmmmmmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
But yes, the Seacop is nice too...

Minguns fire "thousands of rounds a minute". The fact that SR simply ignores that bears to be considered. There are already rules for 20mm and 30mm rotary autocannons (read: gatling guns) in Arsenal. Slap a missile defense mod onto that thing and you got your CIWS.

Indeed....

Miniguns have the potential to fire thousands of rounds per minute. But man, that'd chew through ammo reserves like no tomorrow.

Great for missile defense, not so good for other purposes. Luckily, a rheostat can adjust that cyclic rate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But, as we're talking about CIWS, yes. Thousands of rounds per minute.

You can adjust for that (if it bothers you) by making a x100 cost 'Minigun Ammo', or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's already been adjusted for: THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS PER MINUTE! Ammo does not get cheap at those cyclic rates!

Also, CIWS systems are 20-30mm, those are Cannon Rounds. 45 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a round (Arsenal, Page 178, 450 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) /10 rounds.).

Let's be conservative, and have the CIWS set for 1,000 RPM. There are single barrel machine guns and SMGs that fire faster. It fires off for, oh, thirty seconds during a barrage of missiles. That's 500-Rounds of Cannon Rounds. 22,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) gone in a puff of smoke.

The CIWS is cheap. Keeping it fed, that's expensive.

CIWS when I served carried less than a 1000 rounds in the "magazine". It go thru that in a short time, typically fired short bursts only but was generally good to engage 2-4 targets depending engagement environmental.

Empty shell casings had be be unloaded from the "magazine", then fresh rounds loaded into the "magazine" by an experienced crew in a time measured in minutes.

Bear in mind CIWS fires 20mm Depleted Uranium rounds when I served, so that will add to the costs.

Do not forget the Rolling Airframe Missile launcher that is needed to complete the package.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w...irframe_Missile

No, CanRay, that's my whole point. In SR4, miniguns are literally *not* firing thousands (even hundreds, often, though it's possible) of rounds per minute. That means they're using less ammo/money than they 'ought', so I suggested adjusting the money side of the equation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh. I gotcha now.

As I understand it, Gatling Guns (aside from CIWS) are usually kept at a lower cyclic rate to keep their recoil and ammo usage under control, while their multiple barrels allow for longer continued bursts of fire without replacing barrels like traditional machine guns. Am I wrong in this? (Wouldn't surprise me, remember, I'm a Civvie. And a Canadian one at that.).

So Heavy Weapons Guy is essentially toting a (debatably) man-portable CIWS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

How are 20mm and 30mm rounds "cannon rounds"? Both the "Vigilant" (20mm) and "Vanquisher" (30mm) gatling guns use "regular ammo", not cannon rounds. A "cannon" in shadowrun terms is either an "Assault Cannon" for man-portable weapons, or a smooth bore tank gun (reasonably starting at 75mm for the "Light Cannon" and homing in at around 120mm for the "Heavy Cannon").

In the SR Universe, weapons that usually fire "thousands of rounds a minute" are reduced down to a max of 960 rounds a minute, at a "regular" RoF of around 120 rounds per minute for unenhanced combatants.

Reasons for this are probably game balance with the existing firearms rules (especially burst and full auto rules) as well as playability (read: ammo capacity).

Anyone with even an ounce of sense in their head knows that "Miniguns" are a piss poor Infantry weapon. You'd have to carry around obscene amounts of ammunition and you'd waste it all in a short burst or two. Even at a RoF of "only" 2.000 rounds per minute, carrying 1.000 rounds of ammunition would only last for 30 seconds of actual use. That's not just "ineffective", that's borderline retarded.
Yet, ever since "Predator" (and probably even before that), Miniguns have a"cool" factor that is comepletely undeserved based on their realistic performance. So, to allow such weapons in the game and to "accomodate" the fan obsession to "Infantry Miniguns", the rules had to allow the use of such a weapon with "only" 250 rounds over a somewhat extended duration.

With the rules set as such, the CIWS would have to tie into the same "logic" and have it's ROF reduced to the very same HV range. Especially since the "Vanquisher" is pretty much a SR-stated "GAU-8 Avenger", which is the same as the "Goalkeeper CIWS", as well as the "Vigilant" being the stated version of the "M61 Vulcan" or the "Phalanx CIWS".

The GAU-8 Avenger that's fielded on the A-10 had a 4,200 round per minute firing speed on the 'high' setting (and spits enough recoil to cancel out one of its engines). They hardwired it to a fixed rate of 3,900 RPM and train the pilots to burst in one to two second squeezes due to overheating danger. A pilot could expend his entire ammo capacity in one burst if he so desired, which is about 20 seconds of sustained fire. They don't really jockey with cyclic rates and instead train the gunners to burstfire to keep recoil and ammo use under control.

DOCTOR Heavy Weapons Guy, thank you very much!


So, what are they then? Assault Rifle rounds?

If so, I'm glad I never served after all! I like my collarbones unbroken, thank you very much.

A Panther Assault Cannon (The price listed for the ammo I used above) can't be more than 30mm and still be "Troll Portable" and usable. I don't care what Handwavium is used for recoil compensation, physics is still physics when it comes to firearms. A 75mm Cannon Man Portable Cannon? Hardly!

*Sighs* One weakness to Shadowrun, no calibers listed for any weapons, or options of various types of calibers... OK, yes, it makes for a simpler system, but it provides fights just like this very one.

"Cannon round" is a misnomer.

A 20mm or 30mm gun is traditionally known as an "Autocannon". Such weapons are not man portable - they're simply too big. So their regular ammunition is then a 'cannon round'.

As far as the SR rules are concerned, they have the same stats, cost and availability, yes. Then again that Category encompasses everything from .22 to 30mm Autocannons.



As it is a heavy weapon, it cannot be fired without a Gyromount anyway, compensating somewhat for the recoil. As far as lore is concerned:



That sounds like a 40mm+ round to me, as silly as that may be (comparable to the Bofors 40mm autocannon, the 35mm Rheinmetall Oerlikon or the 35mm Rheinmetall 35/1000 or "Millenium Gun"). The lack of sustained fire capability could be explained as a design compromise to make it man-portable in the first place.

That said, I found "Assault Cannons" in SR Ludicrous, ever since first edition.




True, but most calibers can be derived from the categories. A "Hold Out" would be around the .22 mark, a "Light Pistol" would be around the 9mm mark, a "Heavy Pistol around the 45 ACP or .5 mark (with the Ruger Superwarhawk as probably a .454 casul), a Machine Pistol at the 8mm mark, a "SMG" at the 9mm mark, an "Assault Rifle" as well as a "Light machine Gun" at the 5.56mm mark, a Sport Rifle at the .306 mark, a Sniper Rifle at the .306 to .5 BMG mark, a MMG" at the 7.62mm mark, a "HMG" at the .5 Browning mark, a "Shotgun" at the 12 gauge mark.

At least that would be my classification, which is obviously biased.

And the price I listed for the Assault Cannon Rounds for the CIWS at 20mm-30mm is on page 324 of SR4A.

Regular Ammo ≠ Assault Cannon Rounds.

And, um... 8mm Ammo? Are we talking about 7.92mm Mauser here, often referred to as 8mm? That's a big machine pistol!

And .306 Caliber Rifle? Maybe .303 British Service or .308 Winchester?

Since they say the Panther XXL is indicative of a light tank round, I'd go with an 85mm single-shot superplast. After all, 85mm is a hell of a lot more expensive per round than 20mm CIWS shot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

.308 sounds better, and I'd stick with 9mm for a machine pistol since that's what the Berettas use, IIRC.

He meant miniguns, not assault cannons.

Arsenal includes the vehicle weapons that correspond to 'light tank' and 'heavy tank' cannons, as well as 'autocannons' (and a 'minigun' machine gun). Autocannons aren't assault/tank cannons.

Obviously, this is unrealistic, but also creates some balance questions. *shrug*

Your typical troll will weigh over 300 kg. Not to mention The one that go over 3 meters, and walk around with body and strength scores of 15 and are weighed down by lots and lots of cyberware. Man portable takes on a whole new definition there.

"Assault Cannon" ≠ "Autocannon"

Also see:



and



It seems plausible to therefore consider the caliber "Heavy Machine Gun", especially since it mentions to use the rules for "miniguns", not the rules for "assault cannons".

If you check out the Arsenal Entry for "Light Cannon" and "Heavy Cannon" you will find they derivate from the assault cannon ranges.
While it is not specifically mentioned, I would consider this plausible ground to use assaut cannon rounds as the appropriate ammunition type for Light and Heavy Cannons; same as I would use the Gauss Rifle rounds for its larger cousins.





The 7.65 Browning. Didn't know the caliber name out of my head, just knew it was in the 8mm ballpark. My apologies.
And yeah, .308 Winchester would probably be better.

That's a hell of a good recoil compensation system for a Cannon. I mean, it takes a whole light tank and recoil mount to keep that from tipping over, but, OK, I won't argue any more.

9x19mm Parabellum (With various types of Beretta pistols and SMGs use) is the most common pistol/SMG round in the Western World, as it is the NATO standard pistol cartridge. A lot of people still swear by the .45 ACP, however, and there are a good number of oddball unique rounds that have been tried over the years, including .40 S&W and 10mm Automatic. And, of course, .357, .41, and .44 Magnum Revolver Rounds. Oh, and the "I just have to compensate for something" .500 S&W.

That would be different then. Miniguns are, typically, "Machine Gun" calibers. That is, indeed, regular ammo.

I'm sorry, the lack of calibers grates on me even more than the term "Clips" used all the time incorrectly.

But that's the Gun Nut in me, never mind my ranting and railings as I dance around in copper armor on mountain tops during a storm screaming "ALL GODS ARE WANKERS!" at the top of my lungs.

Point made. A mortar just became "One-Troll Portable" instead of requiring a team. The amount of shells he can carry would still be limited, but a big surprise for anyone not expecting a single person artillery strike.

7.65mm Browning (AKA .32 ACP) is a good caliber for a light pistol or machine pistol. Possibly better than 9mm Parabellum or the caseless equivalent. 9mm Short (AKA .380 Automatic) is also an option. Hey, maybe it is 8mm caseless, we don't know. Again, calibers aren't listed at all.

Now, if you excuse me, "ALL GODS CAN JUST SOD OFF!" *Makes obscene gestures at the storm*