Facrissake. You both lose. Those fonts are awful, and so is whiny slapfight threadjacking.

It seems like a lot of the 'problem' is that people like Tymeaus think it's somehow unfair for a hacker to have low Logic, that they're cheating at life or something. I think that instead of 'encouraging' people to raise their Logic, it will only mean a *lot* more hack-a-boxes. Agents fighting agents is my definition of *less* fun.

It seems part of the problem (discussion?) is about what it takes to be a "good" hacker, whatever that means. IRL or in SR ? Probably they don't match up, even though the rules of SR Matrix stuff sorta tries to imitate RL stuff.

I think that option #1 is good - it encourages "investment", in a variety of ways. High logic, high skill, high program rating. You don't have to invest in all 3 to be good. But if you do invest in all 3, you'll come out ahead of everyone else.

The only downside I can see to this is that there will be people who don't like that they might not be able to have an uber-hacker right from the start.

It's nice, but it's not a strawman - you are advocating socially unacceptable behaviour on the base of it "doing no real harm". It's not any different than advocating public nudity, defecation, playing loud music in the night, and what have you.

Yes, of course, I am exaggerating a bit. Surely you've heard the word "hyperbole" before. You can stop the fit now.

Google is your friend. In top 5 for me, but the results are country-dependent.
Btw, doing some research before asking is a part of netiquette, as well.

Its also part of netiquette to not hijack a thread on completely off-topic comments. If you guys really want to talk about font selection and readablility, why don't you start your own thread and discuss it there. It really sucks the value out of this rather informative discussion by having all this off-topic stuff littering the place...

And yet, that is not what happened at our table. Hackers actually upped their Logic Attrributes, while Script Kiddies use agents. At which point, you have a good delineation of who is a professional HACKER, and who is a poser. Yes, I know, Anecdotal, but true nonetheless...

My table had the same experience as Tymeaus's. Dedicated hackers focused on getting there Logic up, in the same way a gun bunny focused on getting their Agility up.

Now, anyone in the group could still hack. Getting a decent skill (even with low logic) and programs. Plus, they could always invest in an agent. No one at my table seemed to be bothered by that and frankly, no one else wanted to play hacker, so it played out fine. What I found, was that my hacker player felt better about his role, since he could work toward getting better.

I do understand, in a different campaign, how the core rules would work, with the flavor being its all about the gear. Get some high rated programs and careless about attributes and invest low in skills. That works too, if that's the flavor you are going for.

For the millionth time, Tymeaus, your table is never a valid source of even anecdotal evidence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

deek, I agree the the ORAW doesn't make hacking impossible. However, skills (and attributes) are a hell of a lot harder to get than programs. To be any good, you have to plan from chargen. That's fine, but it also removes an option.

I disagree... But then, what else is new... Besides, Deek uses the same ideas at his table as we do, so our table is obviously not as unique in that regard as you are implying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you are a Dedicated Hacker, it does not happen overnight, so yes, you have to plan for it. Using Option 1 enforces that paradigm, rather than someone, on a whim, deciding that they want to be equal to Fasatjack in Hacking prowess, which is what the game base rules allow...

Next people will be complaining about color.

Fatum, do not make trolling flame bait posts.

Tanegar, do not feed the troll.

That not quite true: RAW already has Skill as half the DP. You *can* buy great programs (and the node to run them on, both pretty expensive if you branch out at all), bringing your DP to 6 or 7. You can invest (heavily) in 'ware that boosts, again really expensive. You still need to invest tons of karma in your Computer and Hacking skills, plus specializations for that extra nudge. You're overstating the problem in your favor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I understand that we've been talking about two different views: yours is 'hackers are special like mages' and mine is 'anyone can and should hack'. Still, let's be realistic with the comparisons. RAW: must invest in skill (karma), and programs (cash); ORAW: must invest in skill (karma), stat (karma), and honestly much *less* in programs (much less cash). *shrug* If you want to invest tons of karma, less cash, and be *very* special, just be a technomancer.

Once again I find myself totally in agreement with Yerameyahu. Must be something wrong with me.

Well, true, that, but it's not the first time OP's using that goddamn font, and it's getting really tiring.


At least color doesn't bring tears to the readers' eyes.
Also, how is a legitimate complain trolling? Or is everything ever that's not fuzzy-warm-cheers trolling?

Two Different Things in my opinion. I prefer the flavor that Hackers are indeed Specialists (Like Deckers were before them). Script Kiddies can get by with an agent, a few programs and low logic and skill. This is as it should be. Those who want to hack as a sideline can have average stats, average equipment and average programs, for average results. 3 Different Results for the realm of Hacking. Or you can be truly one with the Machine (for a 4th option) and be a Technomancer.

I like the tradeoffs of Option 1, MUCH more than the Basic Rules. With the Basic Rules, all you need is skill and equipment, and Stat does not even figure into the equation. It is this paradigm that I think breeds similarity in characters. Now, Logic has absolutely no bearing on how good you can be, which results in everyone throwing 10-12 Dice (or possibly even more) with unlimited hit potential. Using that paradigm, no one has programs rated any less than 6, because why would you? This scenario is unacceptable to me.

Of course, all three options will work. It just forces the GM/Players to choose which flavor of Hacking that they want.

Anyone can hack in Sr. That is true. I think anyone should be able, maybe not /hack/ but use computers with certain competence, beyond teh defaulting and using high rating programs. Actually it can add a lot of flavor for a non-hacker to be able to take care of some background processes that makes the rigger and hacker's commlinks too cluttered with stuff (How about someone in the team taking care of communications? Jamming?).

Now, being a /great/ hacker is something that does demand a lot, and weakens them. Hence the concept of combat hacker is one that balances it out, just like the combat mage, who balances physical and magical support. Then again there are the specialists, Astral elven mages with charisma to boot and astral combat who, or hackers with tons of gear towards programming and hacking with lots of dice.

These are all valid concepts. Now I do like the idea of using attribute+skill capped at program rating, because in makes the rules go more in line with the rest of the system. But I think the problem underlying in the discussion is: How do you like your hacker? And that, like meat, depends on the customer.

I share your pain Fatum (I cannot read the font either), and find it sad that the OP is causing problems,

Playing with fonts is about like using bad grammer. Some people don't care. Some people really care and are offended by it. I find it sad that the OP doesn't mind offending people. However we are here to argue about rules, not fonts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Lets keep the discussion on fonts

I'm all for the theory of capped hits as a means to add an additional axis to a series of rolls, as a way of incorporating some third thing (be it an attribute, a skill, a spell's force, or a piece of gear) that should influence a roll. Ultimately it's an attempt to influence the core SR4 mechanic, which is otherwise entirely just "add or remove dice," and the only other way to incorporate that third thing might, otherwise, be to roll skill + stat + [program rating as direct die pool modifier], or something like that...which could get pretty crazy, pretty fast.

In theory, capping hits based on a program rating, an attribute, or a spell's Force is all fine and dandy.

In practice, however? It kind of robs players of the fun of just slinging their dice around and sometimes getting lucky and feeling awesome. I wish there was a happy middle ground where you could still make that third whatever it is matter (be it gear, attribute, or skill, whatever is currently getting ignored based on the series of rolls in question), without making it matter by robbing players of the thrill of a good die roll.

If it has to happen -- a cap on hits is inevitable -- I, personally, would rather see the cap based on the program used, if only because it hits home that sometimes the user is better than his gear.


For someone so obsessed with "netiquette," it seems kind of funny that you're going to bicker with a mod in a thread you've been repeatedly asked to stop derailing.

You do realize that the OP has been using that font for what... going on 4 or 5 years now... You are the first I have seen complain about it.

As to the real topic...
I am more in favor of Attributes + Skills (max hits = Program) like the magic system. For basically all the reasons others are in favor of it. I also dislike game systems that change the rules for similar situations. It is much easier to teach the game when you can say, "Here are the 3 rules you need to know... Attribute + Skill (+ bonuses) to do something, Attribute + Skill (+ bonuses) to defend against something and Attribute (+ bonuses) to resist something..." When you change things half way through or introduce situational rules (essence and healing but not direct combat spells I am looking at you) adds a level of complexity that is unnecessary and completely avoidable.

The only problem with capping at the program rating (or anywhere, really) is that the likelihood of actually passing the hit cap in most circumstances is extremely low.

At 20 dice, a rating 6 program will just be limiting enough to cap you over half the time. At 18 dice it will cap just over a third of the time. At 16 dice it'll cap just over a quarter of the time. At 13 dice it's 1 in 10. By the time you get down to 10 dice, it's less than 2%. However even with a lesser program rating, there's not a huge incentive to care about upgrades. At 12 dice, you're still only passing a rating 4 program's hit cap a third of the time.



So here's what I'd propose:

When hacking, use Log + Skill (depending on the action). Then, treat Program Ratings like Reach in melee combat. On an Opposed Test, the person with the higher relevant program rating gets a bonus (or can impose a penalty) equal to the difference between the two programs. Decrypt opposes Encrypt, for example, and Analyze opposes Stealth.

When faced with a task that has no opposing program, compare against the Firewall rating of the node. Hacking/probing a target, crashing a program/OS, Editing a camera feed, and so on. Remember that an agent's Firewall rating = its Pilot rating.

Programs like Attack, Black Hammer and Blackout, ECCM, Biofeedback Filters, and Armor usually have some sort of static effect that increases with program rating. Attack does more damage, ECCM reduces jamming, et cetera. These don't need to be worried with. Likewise in cybercombat, use Log + Cybercombat, and don't apply extra bonuses for having higher Attack/Armor ratings. The benefit from having higher ratings in these programs is obvious by doing more damage / reducing more damage.

I'm not sure what direction I'd go with certain Browse/Sniffer/Scan actions..

Right. Which means it either does nothing, or it robs a player of a good/lucky/awesome/fun roll. Which is basically what I was trying to say (but might not've been clear about).

A little off topic here, but here's a question. I have a cyber commlink for my Chaos Mage and I put on it a Rating 3 agent, but I also bought Firewall 6. The Agent doesn't go out to do anything. It's (in my mind anyway) designed as ICE to protect my sorry hoop when the fecal matter hits the rotary air circulator. Does the the bad guy have to get past Firewall 6 or Firewall 3?

Firewall 6... Agents do not possess a Firewall Rating, they use the rating of the system they are on.

Oh, ye ghads. You are one of those tools who took [edit: just enough / precious little] Philosophy and/or Logic classes [edit: to be annoying as hell] in their Undergrad and feels like that entitles them to something!

Ad hominem or not, you are douche-tastic, ad nauseum.

I have house ruled capping hits by skill for most every test and, while it rarely comes up, it does have the intended effect of pushing players towards skills and away from too-many-toys syndromes.

Your ideas for using a Reach style mechanic by comparing program ratings is actually pretty boss. I always found the act of using Program + Hardware ratings for hacking tests a little absurd. I had thought hackers should be super smart... but in SR they can be drooling idiots with a whiz deck and trounce most rating 3 or 4 nodes. Sad Panda.

By comparing programs, you can make program ratings a real bottleneck for hacking larger systems. Further, you can make program degredation / upgrading a real thing. You don't want to let your Rating 6 Exploit drop to Rating 5, because then you will lose your edge against the nova-hot nodes you try and tango with.

Very, very sexy.

From p227 SR4 (I know, I don't have SR4A..), "Agents have their own built-in Firewall attribute, equal to their Pilot rating. Agents use the Response attribute of whatever node they are run on; this means that the attributes of an agent operating independently may vary as it moves from node to node."

For too-many-toys, I prefer capping the +DP instead of the hits. This mechanic does minimally exist in SR4 (yet *another* separate mechanic, heh).