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#51
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Dakka Dakka: Dunno. You're probably getting too realistic/science-y though; don't forget, it's Shadowrun. The Airburst Link is inexplicable, but so is Scatter. The Airburst simply makes the rocket more *accurate*, which is ridiculous and insane. Oh well. Let's all just call it the Rocket Rules Fixer; it's required and that's what it does. Add 500¥ to the cost of all launchers.
Interesting, Ascalaphus. A Complex Action might be too harsh (9 seconds for the iconic RPG or LAW), but a wired runner could probably handle that. |
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#52
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
I'm not very familiar with military equipment, but does airburst work well against hard targets? I always thought it was designed so that the warhead does not need to explode on contact but can be triggered after it passed through a barrier that can be penetrated by its kinetic energy alone. Airburst in game, is not necessarily the Airburst of Reality. In this case, the Airburst Module allows you to reduce scatter on Rockets, so that your impact is more in line with your point of aim. In theory, you could also use a Smartlink as well, but the smartlink only adds to accuracy. Using both would result in pretty good odds in hitting with the Rocket though. |
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#53
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 ![]() |
Let's all just call it the Rocket Rules Fixer; it's required and that's what it does. Add 500¥ to the cost of all launchers. I like it. It should also remove the need to take the "compulsive urge to destroy floor near enemies" Flaw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) |
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#54
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,899 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Leiden, the Netherlands Member No.: 17,814 ![]() |
Interesting, Ascalaphus. A Complex Action might be too harsh (9 seconds for the iconic RPG or LAW), but a wired runner could probably handle that. That was kind of the idea... as I understand these weapons simply take time to aim properly; firing one per round is special and not everyone can do it. They take time to aim in the movies (suspense!), and this is an easy way to implement it. --- As for the "but the PCs would be dead!" - several options. * Super-armor; it's out there, and now you know why you need it * Geek the Heavy Weapons dude first It's basically the same as snipers; those can easily kill PCs too. |
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#55
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 ![]() |
This is the world of Shadowrun. Corporations supply the armies, and those supplies are bought based on marketing. They don't give a regular Joe the rocket, they have their hyper-trained specialist fire it on video and in strictly controlled circumstances. Then the army finds itself contracted to buy 50,000 units of this "awesomely accurate and devastatingly powerful" weapon. They've got to do something with them so they give them to their infantry.
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#56
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 ![]() |
Now, for the Game. The reason that these weapons are not as effective in the game is that thjey would KILL the characters more often than not, most of the time, outright. This is not a lot of fun for the players, so they have been made somewhat less accurate to provide more survivability. No big deal really. It is a sacrifice to make the game more playable and fun, instead of modeling the reality of the situation. After all, how fun is it to have your character driving along and be told " Okay, you see a great big white light... make a new character." Is this one of those situations where a troll with a massive soak pool attempts to disarm, fails, and consequently detonates a nuclear device but somehow manages to survive the blast damage? |
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#57
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
I'm not very familiar with military equipment, but does airburst work well against hard targets? I always thought it was designed so that the warhead does not need to explode on contact but can be triggered after it passed through a barrier that can be penetrated by its kinetic energy alone. It depends. IRL there are a couple types of "air burst." I know there's one for grenade launchers that does explode them before impact to throw shrapnel around corners and into trenches. For rockets/missiles its actually more of a "wait 2 seconds after impact before exploding" thing so that kinetic energy punches through walls first. ShadowRun uses the former for all situations. |
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#58
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Creating a god with his own hands ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 ![]() |
This is the world of Shadowrun. Corporations supply the armies, and those supplies are bought based on marketing. They don't give a regular Joe the rocket, they have their hyper-trained specialist fire it on video and in strictly controlled circumstances. Then the army finds itself contracted to buy 50,000 units of this "awesomely accurate and devastatingly powerful" weapon. They've got to do something with them so they give them to their infantry. I fail to see how this is any different than current reality. see: XM25 tests. |
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#59
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
As for the "but the PCs would be dead!" - several options. * Super-armor; it's out there, and now you know why you need it * Geek the Heavy Weapons dude first It's basically the same as snipers; those can easily kill PCs too. 1. Super Armor is not wearable by most people... 2. Heavy Weapons dude is already the 2nd on my list anyways... Which is why Snipers do not make good PC's or NPC, and for the exact same reasons. They are Useful for GM Fiat purposes only... |
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#60
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Is this one of those situations where a troll with a massive soak pool attempts to disarm, fails, and consequently detonates a nuclear device but somehow manages to survive the blast damage? Could be... Or you are in a moving vehicle that takes a missile/rocket and it detonates (which generally results in a lot of secondary explosions as the internal magazines/fuel lets go). It is so exceedingly rare to survive such things that any other outcome than death stretches believeability to the breaking point. Realistically, it should require either a new character, or a montage about how you can "rebuild him, make him better than he was before." No worries though... I steer clear of most Military hardware in the Game, because it draws WAY too much scrutiny. |
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#61
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,416 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Albuquerque Member No.: 8,334 ![]() |
Honestly, I'm cool with players dying if they take a rocket or missile blast in close quarters. It's a fraggin' missile, for christ's sake. You were at point of impact when it went off? Cool. What's your new character going to be like? Or otherwise blow edge.
That said, I don't generally target *people* with rockets and missiles. But if we're going up against light or medium armor vehicles and we know our small arms aren't going to do much, and we're not worried about enemy casualties, the last thing I want to be faced with is an "option" that can't do what it's designed to do: hit your target. *shrug* It's not come up anytime recently, but I'm fairly certain our group (when not playtesting) ignores scatter on successful attack rolls. (I'm an HMG-wielding troll at present, so no real need for a rocket at the moment) |
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#62
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
How about...?
See new scatter chart: CODE Target | Grenade | Rocket | Missile -------------------------------------------- Metahuman | 1d6 | 6d6 | 5d6 Small Drone | 2d6 | 5d6 | 4d6 Medium Drone | 1d6 | 4d6 | 3d6 Large Drone/ | | | Small vehicle | 1d6-1 | 3d6 | 2d6 Large vehicle | 1d6-2 | 2d6 | 1d6 (These of course are not necessarily definite numbers, merely a quick attempt) |
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#63
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Honestly, I'm cool with players dying if they take a rocket or missile blast in close quarters. It's a fraggin' missile, for christ's sake. You were at point of impact when it went off? Cool. What's your new character going to be like? Or otherwise blow edge. That said, I don't generally target *people* with rockets and missiles. But if we're going up against light or medium armor vehicles and we know our small arms aren't going to do much, and we're not worried about enemy casualties, the last thing I want to be faced with is an "option" that can't do what it's designed to do: hit your target. *shrug* It's not come up anytime recently, but I'm fairly certain our group (when not playtesting) ignores scatter on successful attack rolls. (I'm an HMG-wielding troll at present, so no real need for a rocket at the moment) I agree with you on the Consequences of taking a Rocket/Missile to your vehicle. If inside, make a new character. However, there is very little in the way of Military Grade hardware generally in use in our campaign. Even the HMG's and such are heavily restricted by our team. We do not like to stand out much. However, if you are targeting a Vehicle, People are a natural casualty of the munitions, as the vehicles are generally piloted by.... you guesseed it... People. If it comes up in our games, we equip the launcher with an Airburst Link and go on from there. Problem Solved. Uisng the right equipment, we hit... *Shrug* Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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#64
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Douche ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Banned Posts: 1,584 Joined: 2-March 11 Member No.: 23,135 ![]() |
Some house rules to consider:
Thrown grenades scatter as normal. Grenade launchers only scatter on the imaginary line connecting the attacker and the target. (Edit: and beyond the target, so that you can only either fire too short or too long. Firing way to the left or right is unlikely.) Missile launchers should work like rockets (below), with the missile rating as a bonus to the attacker's dice pool. Additionally reduce the scatter of a miss by (Sensor RTG) per hit. -- Rockets: When firing a rocket perform a normal ranged attack test, opposed by a normal defense roll. Multiply range penalties by 2. Rockets only scatter if the attacker achieves no net hits. Reduce scatter by the attacker's total hits (instead of net). If targeting a person or person-sized vehicle or drone (small/mini/microdrones, motorcycles), apply an additional -4 penalty for the size of the target. For passenger-sized vehicles, apply a -2 penalty for the size of the target. Rockets are mostly designed to shoot at bunkers and larger armored vehicles. If targeting something stationary, such as a parked vehicle, wall, or specific spot on the ground, apply the usual modifiers for the attacker (remembering double range penalties) and set a threshold for success based on the difficulty of the shot (with total hits reducing scatter): Target Threshold Example Easy 1 Large building, large vehicle (tractor trailer, tank, cargo helicopter, other large aircraft) Average 2 Small building (such as a utility shed), medium vehicle (box truck, AFV, utility helicopter, other medium aircraft) Hard 3 Passenger vehicle (car, pick-up truck, passenger van, small/personal aircraft) Difficult 4 Roughly man-sized target, such as a door, window, refrigerator, small vehicle (motorcycle) Extreme 5 Small or very low-profile target, such as a toaster or lamp post. Any specific point (1m section or smaller) -- Rockets don't really "scatter" in the sense that a grenade scatters. Grenades bounce when they hit things, and roll around before exploding. You might also botch the throw and fling that grenade far off course. Rockets fire point-to-point. An AT4 rocket travels in a straight line at a higher velocity than some pistols. The only reason to even consider "scatter" for such a weapon is that handguns don't often fire 10m blast radius explosive bullets. If you miss with the rocket, then you need to consider where that rocket goes afterwards. However, you don't need to treat it as an inherently inaccurate weapon that will, given the chance, take a 90-degree corner and fly off to rocket freedom land. Rockets should simply be tweaked to reflect the difficulty of hitting a very small target versus the ease of hitting a very large target. That takes care of the players pretty well, since they are small targets and unlikely to ride around in very large targets. |
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#65
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 ![]() |
How about...? It looks weird that the projectiles scatter differently depending on the target, almost as weird as targets being able to move grenades by dodging. I'd rather have the same scatter but you measure from the center of the target. 1-2m off center from a tank should still hit it, a metahuman not so much.See new scatter chart: [snip] |
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#66
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
No, it makes perfect sense. A human only has to move a few inches and a rocket/missile will fly right past them (happens in the movies all the time), whereas a car would need to move several meters and have a slower reaction time.
I should have noted that for missiles and rockets scatter occurs in only one direction: beyond the target measured as a distance from the shooter (i.e. not left or right, nor closer to the shooter than the target). |
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#67
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Not that it often matters, but I'm fine with scatter in various directions. It means you missed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I assume that's the point.
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#68
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 ![]() |
No, it makes perfect sense. A human only has to move a few inches and a rocket/missile will fly right past them (happens in the movies all the time), whereas a car would need to move several meters and have a slower reaction time. Scatter is independent from the target's movement, by RAW at least.I should have noted that for missiles and rockets scatter occurs in only one direction: beyond the target measured as a distance from the shooter (i.e. not left or right, nor closer to the shooter than the target). So they always hit the target or more precisely the spot where the shooter aimed? Can they scatter vertically? Am I understanding this right? |
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#69
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 ![]() |
Not that it often matters, but I'm fine with scatter in various directions. It means you missed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I assume that's the point. Yeah, but it's utterly ridiculous that you can get a critical success when trying to throw a gas grenade inside the room badguys are in and becouse of scatter the grenade might end up between you legs. And as said that can happen even when you get a critical succes. |
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#70
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Douche ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Banned Posts: 1,584 Joined: 2-March 11 Member No.: 23,135 ![]() |
Yeah, but it's utterly ridiculous that you can get a critical success when trying to throw a gas grenade inside the room badguys are in and becouse of scatter the grenade might end up between you legs. And as said that can happen even when you get a critical succes. That's because the scatter rules are stupid. Instead, set a threshold based on target difficulty (or make an opposed test with pretty hefty modifiers for using indirect weapons against a person), and only scatter on a miss. Reduce scatter by total hits rather than net hits to allow partial success. |
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#71
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
Scatter is independent from the target's movement, by RAW at least. We're talking "skill: dodge" levels of movement. The "combat is chaotic and things aren't always right where we've modeled them." The dodge roll means that the target moves out of the way, this is represented already as part of the rocket attack. Thing is, a metahuman ducking doesn't save them from bullets much, but would save them from being hit in the face with a missile (conceptually also, most people believe that rockets can be dodged because you see them coming, whether or not this is true doesn't matter--we've all played quake). So the same "amount" of dodge goes farther. QUOTE So they always hit the target or more precisely the spot where the shooter aimed? Can they scatter vertically? Am I understanding this right? I chose "linear" because trying to model the miss going high/low in a table top game isn't easy. Yes, rockets can scatter up. I'd leave that to the GM. (It's even entirely likely that 6" of scatter strait up causes a rocket to impact the ceiling right above the target, resulting in no effective scatter, thus I don't want to right rules for how to do it) Yeah, but it's utterly ridiculous that you can get a critical success when trying to throw a gas grenade inside the room badguys are in and becouse of scatter the grenade might end up between you legs. And as said that can happen even when you get a critical succes. It's worse when it was because of the guy's epic dodge roll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Had you targeted the floor (which by RAW you can't do if there are metahumans in the blast zone) you'd have hit dead on. Makes me want to make a demo man with an intense hatred of furniture. "I lob a grenade at that chair. It gave me a funny look." |
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#72
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Mäx, I was just responding Draco18s' suggestion that *rockets* can't scatter back (he's actually fine with grenades doing it, btw). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I don't believe you can't target a location if metahumans are nearby. You can't target the ground at a guy's feet in the middle of the street, but a small room? Psh. |
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#73
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 ![]() |
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#74
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
Mäx, I was just responding Draco18s' suggestion that *rockets* can't scatter back (he's actually fine with grenades doing it, btw). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't believe you can't target a location if metahumans are nearby. You can't target the ground at a guy's feet in the middle of the street, but a small room? Psh. Hence my point of having a missions character who hates furniture (and anything else I can justify). "My intent is not to kill that man, he's just in the way. My primary target is that G*d d*mn chair." |
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#75
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Targeting furniture is targeting a location. *shrug*
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