Guard is a spirit power which makes glitches impossible. Higher level parties often have a spirit hang around just to keep Guard up on them at all times.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think I like the sound of that. Will have to watch out for it.

Yeah, in my games Guard is self-only (so the spirit can be immune to glitching, but it can't make others immune), and Edge works differently:

Edge rerolls affect all dice, not just the ones that didn't hit.
Edge dice added to a test are rolled separately. If this separate test glitches, the test as a whole glitches as well. If the edge test critically glitches, the test glitches AND loses hits equal to the number of 1's rolled with Edge dice. This can make the test as a whole critically glitch if this brings the number of hits to zero.

This makes Edge more of a "shoot for the moon" effect: potentially amazing results, but also greater risk.

Glitches are pretty rare; if one happens, I want to have fun with it, not have the player say "OK, I spend a point of edge".

I really need another SR-group for checking if our group plays completely wrong or not. I always hear comments and see houserules for mages, edge etc. because the people think there could be something broken with them, but i really have to say that these problems never occured to us. Our mages don´t kill thousands of enemies with the blink of an eye while suffering no drain, our edge is usually gone after the first part of the adventure and everbody is keeping at least one point as part of the "safety first" rule, so that we can buy "gods-hand" if needed...and on top of that: we have a lot of glitches and a critical glitch is also not uncommon nor is it rare.

What are your dicepools like?

Depends on character class (of course, you know that already).

Mage: spellcasting between 12-14 dice, drain-soak 12, summoning 12, physical soak incl. armor app. 12.
Sam: shooting appr. 18-20, physical soak around 18 (human) to more than 30 (orks and trolls).

With e.g. 12 dices you only need to be wounded (-2 or -3), bad weather or lighting conditions, cover, movement, background count etc. and you are in a 5-7 dice range. I don´t know the exact statistics, but a dice pool in this size is quite glitch-endangered.
A glitch or even a critical glitch for the sams while shooting is less common, but even these 20 dices are quickly reduced. Maybe the other groups forget about all the modifiers that exist? I don´t know.

If you're shooting at night while wounded, I think things should go wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I like grit (within reason, of course).

Of course. We play Shadowrun. Shadow implies darkness, mostly found at night. And shooting?....i would say this is everydays work. Because it is everbody elses work too, being shot is quite common. So this means to me, being wounded and shooting at night is what we basically play....ergo.....glitches are everything but NOT rare.^^

PS: you are located in Seattle? Great, just found sombody i am going to visit for a short round of SR when i come to the US the next time.^^ Always wanted to see Seattle.^^

This is why my shooter always character ultrasound, IR, and nightvision on him....

It's a nice area. If my sister's in town at the time, that would be cool too - she's a German student (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm trying to write this way too many times, so I'm just going to say -

I hate powergamers.

Such what thing? You neglected to quote, and the post wouldn't make sense as the subject of your issue.

Besides that, edge is limited to maximum 7. This is really not so much that you could "abuse" it. Play a run that is split in 2 or 3 sessions, then even the player with 7 edge has to think exactly when he spents it and when not.

Haha, notice that I went back and edited it Tyro (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My wife had the television going, and unfortunately, it was distracting me.

My issue is that Guard is one of those things that when written looks innocuous enough, but in the hands of "creative" individuals, gets abused. Is having a spirit buddy save your bacon once in a blue moon cool? Yeah, it is. But to specifically underwrite one of the core elements of the game (hey, occasionally you fuck up really badly) because your character is an immortal elf puncher that can't be stopped, well, that smacks of viewing the game as nothing more than a single player video game, and that annoys me. It further annoys me that it's yet another thing I have to watch out for, because there are people out there that would specifically abuse it and then act shocked when I tell them that they're being dinguses.

The video game comparison is apt, by the way; the same people that would abuse this sort of thing are the same assholes who like to snake in Mario Kart.

Which one? Super Mario Kart on the SNES?

Actually, a Human can have an 8 Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Why would it be "abuse"? In the case of preventing glitches, I think it is simply being used as it should be. Deliberately diving under the surface of the water and not drowning would be abuse of Guard. One key feature of Shadowrun, I feel, is that there is always a counter. Glitching? Guard is a good counter, except when you Glitch calling up that spirit in the first place.

I hold a vastly different view of the issue. It annoys me that people see other people that use a game mechanic that specifically undermines another as smacking of viewing the game as nothing more than a single player video game. It also annoys me that they would view such people as "abusing" the mechanic; I'd probably say the same of that person if he were to tell me that using Guard in the manner as it is clearly written is being a "dingus".

I do not like rulebreakers. They are cheats. But using a clearly useful game mechanics as it is written is not breaking the rules; powergaming is just another style of playing an RPG. I suspect I hate people who have to houserule or otherwise feel the need to regulate the use of good and useful game mechanics to conform to their idea of "fun" as much as you hate powergamers.

Actually, I think it's 8.
7 from being a Human.
+ 1 from a feat- I mean quality.

You should take that quality. "if you're not doing it you're dumb". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Lawful evil and lovin' it.
http://gamerfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2...nment-Chart.jpg

I'd like to add that it's a lot of fun to look through the rules and find interesting ways to combine bonuses. I try not to abuse loopholes, but then again, what other people would call "abusable loopholes", are what I see as "Nuances in wording cleverly hidden by developers as a rewarding sort of easter egg hunt for people that read their books thoroughly".
Probably not the reality of the situation, but hey, that's how I see it.

I think longbow has the right of it - you and I have vastly different perceptions of gaming.

Purposely gaming the system annoys me. It's like you're trying to eliminate every aspect of failure so that you can get the best result, all the time. Glitches - critical glitches - are fundamental mechanics of the world. They happen. Walking around with a spirit buddy following you simply so that you don't trip and fall over something and walk into a glass wall smacks of - "this is my world, and fuck you, I'm a fsking god." Reminds me so much of listening to people talk about 4th edition D&D and why I left the community in general.

I get that the fun for you is to work the system and that that's the kind of gaming you like to do. But that's why I've got my group, and you've got yours. Different strokes, different folks.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
May I just point out that Guard also gives you a little opportunity for fun?

"The Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent normal
environmental accidents and hazards (both natural and those induced
by the Accident power), such as preventing someone from succumbing
to heatstroke or saving someone from drowning. The Guard power can
also be used to prevent a glitch from occurring. Guard may be used on
a number of characters at once equal to the critter’s Magic attribute."

Your players will probably become quite confident in this ability, so any glitches will become that much more of a big deal, and to me, that sounds like a GM's kind of fun.
There are a few ways to do this:

1. This power prevents normal environmental accidents and hazards. I'm pretty sure cooking off a grenade for too long doesn't fall into that category. In fact, most likely glitches I can think of don't fall into that category.
2. Put some mana static in the mix so the spirit is no longer viable. The players may have forgotten how bad glitches can be at this point. Suddenly, the Sammie needs to default on an active skill. Poor guy.

Then again, critter powers can be pretty ridiculous. Just have fun.

I hate mana static as an answer to anything. Like nuking mosquitoes at point-blank range.

Granted, the mosquitoes have automatic weapons, but still.

My policy with Mana Static is only in places where it makes sense. like Blood Magicky places and radioactive stuff. WHich reminds me, what sort of a background count would a toxic waste processing plant have?

None. Zero. And whatever is there definitely won't harm a troll who carries his bow with him. Proven fact.
You know what would be dangerous and thrilling? Bunnies. You could send bunnies after us.

...Please?