Looking through this, it looks like a few people have been claiming that unawakened characters lose to mages in the long run.
Can someone please counter these points?

• Pain editor to make stun pretty much useless for the first attack.
• Weapons have base DV, allowing them to be heavy hitters even before rolling, and you can get enough attack dice that rolling reaction, or even reaction + dodge isn't ever going to make you miss.
• Sammies will dump into reaction, and sometimes intuition, thus pretty much ensuring they go first in combat. At the game stage you guys are talking about, the first person to act decides who lives and who dies.

Don't be silly, longbowrocks. For one thing, anything X can do, mysad can do better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sustained/anchored/quickened/adept power buffs for the Initiative, infinite LOS spells for the shooting (which don't have to be stunbolt), etc. Not to mention anything about spirits, utility spells…

This is specifically in the crazy-long run, of course. In the short run, things are a little better, which is good; that's when most games happen.

Ok, that make much more sense, i was mostly thinking "12 dice, wait a second if you have a magic 9 then spellcasting skill at rating 3 already gets us that"

Most characters should have at least a 4, if not a 5 (the skill group not being worth the BP--Banishing = Useless).

I read that as:
Cumulative -2 penalty/how? you're already dumping all your karma into magic and initiation/(don't have the book with me I'll get to this later)/hella expensive and can never compete with bioware unless you have dozens of power points (even then you can't simulate pain editor)


Infinite LOS is nice, in the rare situations where your LOS is unobstructed by buildings for more than the minimum range increment of a holdout pistol. Even then, there's camo, stealth, and just plain being behind a tree.


Lets talk crazy long run. We all know sammies will wallop a mysad's patooty in the short run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Your move. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

No, it's not a choice *between* those. It's having the option to do any/all of those. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Are you artificially limiting the discussion to melee range? That's ridiculous. And the Awakened character is better at "camo, stealth, and just plain being behind a tree"—tons better. And astral sight defeats most of that.

Again, *anything* the sam can do, the mysad can do. Plus spells, astral sight, PP, spirits, metamagics…

Not all Spellcasters are Veteran or Elite Casters though... In fact, not many are. A Skill of 3 is a Professional Rating after all. Just because you CAN do a thing (Get a Skill above 3) does not mean that you SHOULD. The skill should reflect the Character, and I am sorry, if you were so skilled at Magic (Skills 5+), The corps would likely never let you go, or you would be working for them shortly after they discovered your potential, for those who started outside the Corporate Environment. Magically Aware people are a Rarity, after all, and ones so skilled (or so powerful for those with a Magic Rating above 3) are even rarer.

Banishing isn't useless unless your GM is a jerk and makes every spirit bound with 30 services.

I dunno. The threads demonstrating that Banishing is useless seemed pretty convincing. *shrug* IIRC, it's always worse than just Stunbolting (less effective and/or more dangerous).

Actually, the number of services and the effectiveness of Banishing is related to the number of services that a player character could reasonably get (without edge) on any given force of spirit.

The Banisher rolls Banishing + Magic, which is resisted by the Spirit's Force + Summoner's Magic (if bound). Net hits are subtracted from the spirits services.

If it's a low-force spirit, the spirit's owed services are going to be high (Magic + Binding - Force*2). If it's a high force spirit, it's going to have a lot of dice to resist banishing.

And it takes a complex action. Versus just stunbolting it to death.

No, it allows you to still cast spells in -12 background count.

Don't you mean (Magic + Binding - Force * 2) / 3? Unless we're assuming that every die for the binding is a success.

But I agree that you typically don't want to banish a bound spirit. A summoned one though, is usually easier to banish than he is to stun bolt to death, especially if he's of a type that gets counter spelling and has enough force that your sammies can't just kill him with a gun faster than you can say "heeby jeeby mumbo jumbo."

Each one has its downsides. All those downsides stack in the end when you're trying to cast spells.
the -2 penalty from sustaining one spell, in addition to having 1 less magic than you could because you invested in anchored spells, totals to 3 fewer dice than you would have rolled otherwise.
Sammies can have a similar issue, but in their case they just add recoil compensation.


No, don't worry about that. I don't even like melee. I was just pointing out that infinite LOS seldom comes in use (at least in our games) I told our mage in our last session that he had infinite range when provided with non technical LOS. He was pleasantly surprised, but we still didn't get a chance to use it. I was even ready to use MRSI with my bow from 720 m away to get multiple simulatenous impacts on all the building's supports.


Great. Now nobody can see anybody. We all win. Except the sammie can use thermographic, ultrasound, and technical instruments for sight, many of which will not be fooled by magic.


What is this I don't even. Aren't there like five ways to defeat astral sight in the core book alone? Again, I'm not a huge magic buff, but there are a few plants with astral projections in gear (runner's companion?), one of which you could feasibly make a gillie net out of, and a few qualities to disguise or remove your astral presence spread throughout the books.


I still don't see anything on par with the pain editor.
Or platelet factories.
Or ridiculous internal armor from cyberware, which is a strategy restricted to unawakened characters (unless you have a strong desire to be the formerly awakened mage).

MyaAd can take the top two, but that reduces his max potential in other areas permanently.

vestri permoveo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

PS, lemme know if I got anything mind-blowingly wrong. I'm working off memory here.

Isn't spellcasting a complex action anyway?

Dice pools. Magic + Binding vs. Force * 2. Hits on the latter subtract from hits on the former.

Don't worry. It's an internet forum debate. Someone will let you know if you got something even slightly wrong (like spelling), and won't let you live it down either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

3 dice (from Magic) isn't important. Ask Mäx about his combat mage munchkins. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And are you intentionally ignoring sustaining foci (or Spirits of Man), or what?

In fact, all of those can be fooled by magic, whether it's a perfectly legal (and game-breaking) custom spell, or a spirit with Concealment.

I can count on one finger the number of FAB ghillie suits I've ever seen. And I said 'most of that', meaning your explicitly listed "camo, stealth, and just plain being behind a tree". I don't see where you mentioned rare, expensive, and fragile manatech there, Mr. 'What is this I don't even'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Nevermind that the mysad, as I said, can get all those visions. Say it with me: 'anything X can do, mysad can do better'.

The mysad can *have* a pain editor. And Platelet Factories. And spells ignore armor. Come on, man! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This Dumpshock; when it comes to Magicrun, ain't our first rodeo.

I guess if your GM's a jerk and corpsec wagemages have Magic 6 and Summoning 7, that could be a problem, too. But even then, I wouldn't expect an unbound spirit (even a very low-Force one) to have more than 2 or 3 services on it -- especially since the summoner has to expend at least one service to get the spirit to do anything other than sit there staring at him.

Beyond that, if the spirit has a high Force, odds are a stunbolt isn't going to cut it, unless you over/multicast it so much that the drain starts to become a serious problem.

Imagine even that the summoner summons a Force 10 spirit, with 2 net hits on it -- this isn't far outside the realm of possibility, even, since you can easily have more dice on a summoning test than a very high-Force spirit gets to roll to resist. The summoner spends one service to get it to guard something. This spirit is going to have 10 resistance dice and 12 stun boxes. You can't plan on taking this out in one shot. When you overcast that Force 10 stunbolt with Edge, and there's still a sizable chance of the spirit completely resisting the spell, or at least still being alive after it takes the damage, you're in trouble. Because on top of the 4P drain from that stunbolt, the spirit is going to roll 20+ dice on its attack, even after wound penalties, and your mage is going to be a puddle of magically delicious red goo.

Or you could take your chances rolling Banishing with Edge (with more dice than the spirit gets) and trying to get just 1 or 2 net hits to save the day - because your buddies probably aren't getting through that 20 hardened armor. And every IP that spirit gets to act, someone is probably going to die.

Not that you get to go first, anyway, since it probably has 20+ initiative dice.

You can multi-cast two F7 stunbolts for about 1 drain.

Stunbolt: (F/2)-2
Multi-cast: +1 drain DV

F7 -> (7/2) -> 3. 3-1 -> 1. 1+1 = 2 DV.

Drain resist (non-twink): Willpower 5, [Drain Stat] 4.
9 dice to resist 2 DV twice.

Those sound like good odds to me.

Split your dice pool versus something with 6+ resistance dice?

Also 3 - 1 = 2, so that's 3 DV apiece. Good odds, but you'll probably pick up 1 or 2 physical.

Lol. You've got us pegged.


Aren't the foci just for bonuses? Maybe I'm a bit out of my depth, then again, 3 dice will only get you that one anchored and one sustained spell. Are you going to give up more for an astral barrier? how about invisibility?


Custom spell:
Did you know the game doesn't say how movement bonuses stack, or mention which ones don't stack? 5 hits to sprint and my centaur named Guile breaks the sound barrier, rending all nearby into red mist.


Wouldn't ultrasound vision be technological and therefore useless for any spellcasting?
As for the addition to the list, there are so many possibilities in this game that I can't think of everything on the first post.


Nevar!
Even if you can knit that sweater, I can fill it better.
And any song you can sing I can sing louder, I can sing any song louder than you.


I pointed out that you're giving up magic for the bioware, and karma for the wasted magic.


Oh, so now it's out in the open. We aren't just talking relative bonuses, but how the sammie will kill the mage and vice-versa. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)
Please don't die on me now thread. The battle will continue later today after my CS 352 exam. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

Banishing is good against high force unbound spirits with counterspelling.

A sustaining focus sustains a spell; that's the job. So, for example, you sustain Wires 3. Or invisibility, sure. You can have several, and they're honestly not that expensive (cash/karma). Not in the 'crazy long run' context we're using.

If there were rules for ramming with nonvehicles, your centaur would kill himself anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And there aren't.

I didn't say ultrasound worked for spellcasting. That's all you can respond to 'the mage can get all the visions, even though he barely needs them' with? Come at me, bro! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The loss to magic versus the bonuses of getting a little cyber/bio is minor, and that's specifically what 'crazy long run' Initiation/Magic raising fixes. It's even worse if you cyber up while your Magic is lower, a truly ridiculous munchkin tactic. (See also: any number of threads specifically about this.)

You're the one who mentioned armor as if it were relevant. I only pointed out that it's not. And non-cyber armor is more than sufficient, except for numerical exercises. That's the thing: these Awakened are fully playable, not a Binky or a pornomancer. There's *one* thing that can sorta help counteract the Magicrun dominance in the (once again, totally ridiculous) 'crazy long run': Astral Hazing. And that's an extreme SURGE-only power.

I don't even care about this, I literally never play Awakened characters. But since you're new and curious about powergaming, I'm mentioning what I've seen. Hehe.

So what, the caster is getting no net successes on his Stunbolt?



Even with just the 1 net hit you need to be successful on your cast, you've increased your drain by 50%.


Also, Stunbolt is -1 (you switch between -1 and -2 in your post), which makes the force 7 stunbolt 2 base +1 for multicasting = 3 + 1 for a net success = 4. If you get more than one net success that goes higher. So you're resisting 4 DV twice with 5 will and 4 drain stat, which is an average of 3 successes. Meaning you take on average one drain for each cast. More drain if you roll better.

"used to increase the damage value". Don't pay for what you don't use.