Also optional rule. Also dumb. Also doesn't matter.

As for "splitting dice pool." Let's see:

6 magic (we'll overcast, because we want that thing dead).
4 Spellcasting
2 Specialization ("combat" is always useful)
3 Focus (spellcasting)

6+4 = 10
Split is 5/5
+modifiers of 5

10/10 dice vs. a spirit with 6 willpower. Reasonable odds for 1 net hit per spell. If it has counterspelling, use Edge. No one will blame you.

I get the impression that people who crow about the awesome power of Stunbolt typically don't use that optional rule.

I don't see anything that says you can choose to not use it to increase your damage value. The only reference I see is:





If you could choose to not increase it to reduce your drain it would say "Any net hits on the spellcasting test may be used to increase the DV by 1", the way it is worded says that it always increases, and thus always increases your drain.




It's not an optional rule, it's in the core rulebook listed under the properties of combat spells. Nowhere is it stated or implied that it is optional. But yes, I'm sure a lot of stuff is broken when you ignore the rules on them completely.

I have gotten the impression that most people in general don't use that optional rule, mostly because it's probably the stupidest optional rule ever written for SR4(actually us saying pretty much exactly that is what got it turned in to an optional rule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Please get an updated version of your PDF, it's been an optional rule for a long time(much, much longer then it was a non-optional)

Mainly because it's a rule that encourages overcasting (and multi-casting). It doesn't actually solve the problem it tried to fix (which was to curb overcasting).

So they took away the one balancing factor of indirect spells while not simultaneously raising the drain to match elemental manipulations? The lower drain values of mana spells make sense when you figure it's expecting a few extra hits to raise the drain. The drain values with that being taken away make no sense. I'm going to repeat, of COURSE when you take away the balancing factor of a spell, it's going to be broken.



How does a rule that increases your drain encourage over casting? I can see the reasoning for it encouraging multicasting, but I can't see someone wanting to overcast when there's a chance they'll get a really good roll and kill themselves.

The rule that you quoted above is an Optional Rule, and does not apply by default. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Yerameyahu
What is "the long run"?
500 Karma? 700 Karma? 1000 Karma? 1500 Karma?

"Hmm, if I raise my force by 2 and spend no hits on extra damage, I get 2 damage for 1 drain."

vs.

"Hmm, or I can spend 2 net hits for damage, and I'll get the same 2 damage for 2 drain."

Which would you do? And once you're overcasting, you can eek out even more damage for only half the drain of using net hits.

All of our discussions have to be at least based in RAW. RAW, that optional rule is not used, so don't get mad about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Let me clarify, that rule was only ever non-optional in the first pdf version of the anniversary edition corebook(it didn't exist before that) and when we pointed out that it's stupid and doesn't really do what it's supposed to do at all it was turned in to an optional rule in the updated pdf and the hard copies.

Why do people on this forum always insist on pointing something out that's already been pointed out by 2-3 other people? Is the redundancy somehow worthwhile?

Anyway, it was initially a mandatory rule, apparently somewhere along the line it got erratad to an optional rule. This is really stupid given they didn't errata drain of other spells to compensate for losing that, so now all direct spells are much lower in drain than their indirect equivalents. For the elemental effects, I could see +1 dv for the secondary bonuses (catching things on fire for extra damage for example is worth a little something extra), but compare Stunbolt to Clout. They do the exact same thing, except Clout gets to be resisted by armor, and has a +1 higher drain.

First, I think there's a typo there.
Second, it's not true.

How is it not true? Spell drain codes did not change. They are exactly what they were in SR4 as they are now in SR4A.

Also: compared to elemental effects, even with the optional rule, the direct spell is better.

Except there is no rule for omitting net hits to deal less damage, as was already pointed out. So you overcast, you get the 1 higher drain, and drain converted to physical, AND the same number of net hits, so your damage is now 2 higher, but you're facing the same drain as before, plus 1, and it's all physical. Yes, that is enough to divert most people from wanting to overcast.

That's still not how dice pool splitting is supposed to work. Specializations and Foci are intended to be applied before the split. In your example, the split should be 7/7.



Has there been some official or semi-official release changing this from what's in SR4A? It's not listed as optional in my book.

Fixed.



You realize you're basically confirming my point? They changed the rule that was intended to balance direct vs indirect, then reverted it after some forum whining. So Direct remains blatantly better. The answer should have been to increase the DV of direct spells by +1-2 across the board, if they were going to get rid of the rule to increase the DV based on the casting.

It might make more sense for splitting to work that way, Epicedion, but it's not how it actually works. As with the optional rule, we use the RAW for discussing, no matter how reasonable a house rule seems. Seerow, again, we're talking about the RAW, not what you think would be a better rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Lets see then...

Force 5 Mana Bolt Spell. 5 Net Hits: 10dv, with a Drain of 7 (Stun). You are Not always likely to get those 5 Hits either.
2x Force 5 Multicast Mana Bolt Spells. No applied Net Hits, with a combined Drain of 3 Each. Damage of 10dv. Drain of 6 (Stun)
Force 10 Man Bolt Spell. I will use NO net hits to increase Damage. Damage 0f 10DV with drain of... Wait for it... 5 (physical)

Yes, The overcast Spell's drain will be physical, but so what. Any competant mage will likely be able to reduce this to insignificant Drain damage, While 7 is generally GOING to give you some damage, stun or not.

So, you see, The Rule enforces Multicastiong and Overcasting to get the effects wanted, with minimal drain to boot.

Epic fail for a rule to curb Overcasting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There is no reason what so ever to say "every net hit used to increase the damage" unless you allowed to select whether or not you use those net hits to increase damage.

Tada!
There's even a section in the spellcasting general rules that a magician can chose not to apply net hits if they so choose.



(I do not have the SR4A book here at work)

Here is the full quote from the most recent books.



Please see the Highlighted text... It is both Optional to apply as many hits as you would like (you do not have to apply them all by default), and it is also an Optional Rule for Applied hits to increase Drain...

Hopefully this will solve the Yes it is, not it isn't line of thought.

EDIT: Damn. Ninja'd by Draco18s. Though he used a different page source for his; so, TWO sources that confirm the same thing. Can't argue that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Given the discussion started by this optional rule starting as a RAW rule that got changed, the discussion is relevant. I've already said that yes, with that change stunbolt is blatantly overpowered. The drain is still higher than what the original poster I quoted said (3 as opposed to 2 per casting), but that is more manageable.

My point is the creators appear to have made a change at the last minute based on whining, and balance was hurt because of it.




You're still trying to say you can choose not to use net hits to increase damage. Since we're discussing RAW that can't actually be done. So your force 10 mana bolt spell will have the same 5 net hits as the force 5 mana bolt, giving you a 15 DV with a drain of 10(physical).

I'd say that's a huge deterrent to overcasting. I already said yes, it does encourage multicasting.



Show me where it actually says you can make the choice to not increase the damage. I already quoted the relevant part from the book where it says every net hit increases damage, as opposed to can be used to increase damage.


edit: And ninjad with a quote from the newest version of the book.

Yup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, choosing is RAW, and not increasing DV is RAW. *shrug*. You act like people are lying to you, instead of assuming they know the correct rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) No one (well, some crazy people) disputes that magic and direct mana spells can be imbalanced… that's the point of the thread. You're just re-proving it.

It's not a house rule. There's a very reasonable explanation of it in the FAQ that doesn't require you to add or remove any text or sidebars to the rulebook.

Before anyone goes all up in arms about FAQ ISN'T ERRATA ARAAGAHGALBRBL as has happened in the past, what this means is that the developers view their FAQ explanation as RAW. They aren't treating it as a rules change, just as a clarification for what's obviously become a confusing mechanic. Otherwise they would say "this is a better way of doing it" or "this is a rules change." No, they said "this is what the rule means. This is how dice pool splitting is done." Specializations and Foci aren't Dice Pool Modifiers. They "add to tests." They "add to dice pools." But they are not "Dice Pool Modifiers."

It then follows that anyone who prefers to stand by their prior interpretation of the rules has essentially house-ruled in a flawed understanding (assisted heavily by some pretty flawed writing), and that house rule shouldn't be discussed in a conversation about RAW.

If that were the case then, those bonuses would not be called out as a "modifier" to the dice roll... The FAQ is trying to do an endrun around the non-existant Eratta. Everyone knows that. Yes, it is a terminology thing. But there you go. Specializations and Foci bonus dice are MODIFIERS to the skill roll. And Modifiers are added AFTER the split. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)