I used to think that applying Mentor and Specialization bonuses after splitting dice was cheesy and wrong, but I had to change my mind about it. The bonuses might apply to only one spell, so it makes much more sense to apply them after the split.

Likewise, penalties for situation (darkness) might apply to only some targets, so it makes more sense to only apply them to the dice pool for affecting those specific targets.

Honestly, the text in the book is really rather vague. A few chance remarks and the order in which they're made on the same page is very tenuous to build a case from either way. But when I think about it, only applying the modifiers after the split makes good sense to me.

I still think getting the bonuses twice for casting the same spell twice is cheesy and a bit OP, but it makes sense. That's mostly because the bonuses are rather big in comparison to the actual Magic+Spellcasting pool.

@Mäx
1. Assumption: I am allowed to apply the boni of a combat foci for a heal/combat spell. Combat foci apply for combat only spells.
2. Assumption: Same as the first with mentor spirits.


@Draco18s

Foci and Mentor boni do not apply to mixed spell pools is a equally valid interpretation.
They only apply half is a possible interpretation too.
And of course: Foki can not be used at all when multicasting. (The most RAW since modifications are not mentioned)
They are all assumptions.


Only if you go with the assumption to apply both modifiers.
But: If I would apply two different modifiers when casting two different spells I would also have to apply the double modifier when casting a single spell twice.

Example:
Magic 5, Spellcasting 5, Mentor:Dark Goddess.
Your way:
Casting Heal and Stunbolt: 5+5+2+2=14
Casting 2 Stunbolts:5+5+2*2=14.

No modifiers for different spells:
Heal and Stunbolt: 5+5=10
2 Stunbolts: 5+5=12

Modifiers only count half
Heal and Stunbolt= 5+5 +1 +1=12
2 Stunbolts = 5+5+2 =12

No modifiers if multicasting
Heal and Stunbolt:5+5=10
2 Stunbolts: 5+5=10

Those aren't assumptions, thats how the rules work.

Combat spellcasting focus adds dice to the pool when casting a combat spell and i'm casting a combat spell, ergo i add the focis force as a modifier to my ppol.
Same goes for mentor spirit and specializations.

Is it just me or does the idea of letting off a lightning bolt while becoming more Charismatic seem insanely fucking awesome? I think I've finally found a purpose for indirect combat spells -- randomly firing off special effects while doing something totally not related. It'd be like Obi-wan letting off some force lightning while saying "These are not the droids you are looking for." Sweet.

There is no such thing as a "combat/heal" spell. You have a combat spell (foci/mentor spirit applies) and a heal spell (foci/mentor does not). The two are simply being cast at the same time.

I used to think that it was cheesy and wrong to apply modifiers after splitting, because then you could get a bonus twice.

But the alternative makes far, far less sense; that modifiers end up modifying the wrong things.

So I believe that applying modifiers after splitting is correct RAW&RAI, even if it's somewhat unbalanced. That's mainly because the modifiers are so big compared to Magic+Spellcasting.

---

You could impose house rules to handle that. For example, you could rule that the final dice pool for any spell can't be more than twice it's base Magic+Spellcasting dice pool (after splitting). This discourages overspecialization on one particular spell type.

Or, you could lump all the Drain for all the spells together, resisted with only one Drain Resistance test - making it more difficult to swallow.

Most definitely not just you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I would disagree, because some spells can get very high in their drain very quickly (stunbolt is just a good spell to multicast, because you can multicast it about 4 times before the drain actually becomes meaningful: 4S for F5 or less) and summing them together would mean no one would EVER multicast them (say, fireball).

The way I actually play this is:

Magic M
Spellcasting S
Focus F
Specialization P
Mentor Spirit T

A normal dice pool would be generated by M+S+F+P+T, and then altered by situational modifiers -- cover, visibility, etc.

A split dice pool would be done the following way:

Assume the Focus (F) and Specialization (P) and Mentor Spirit (T) are all for combat spells.

For two combat spells:
M+S+F+P+T

For two noncombat spells:
M+S

For a combat spell and a noncombat spell:
M+S


Now things can get tricky: assume the Specialization is for Combat spells, the Focus is for Health spells and the Mentor Spirit is for Illusion.

Here we pick the smallest pool.

For a multicast Combat and Health spell:
The smaller of M+S+P and M+S+F

For Combat, Health, and Illusion:
The smallest of M+S+P, M+S+F, and M+S+T

So if you have Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, Health Spellcasting Focus 3, Mentor Spirit (+2 Illusion), and Specialization (Combat +2), you could...

Cast Fireball and Heal:
M+S+P = 6+6+2 = 14
M+S+F = 6+6+3 = 15
Split 14 dice, then apply modifiers.

Cast Fireball, Heal, and Invisibility:
M+S+P = 6+6+2 = 14
M+S+F = 6+6+3 = 15
M+S+T = 6+6+2 = 14
Split 14 dice, then apply modifiers.

Now let's go a little crazy, and say Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, Combat Focus 4, Health Focus 2, Illusion Focus 3, Mentor Spirit (+2 Illusion), Specialization (Combat +2)

Fireball and Heal:
M+S+P+F = 6+6+2+4 = 18
M+S+F = 6+6+2 = 14
Split 14 dice.

Heal and Invis:
M+S+F = 6+6+2 = 14
M+S+F+T = 6+6+3+2 = 17
Split 14 dice.

All three:
M+S+P+F = 18
M+S+F = 14
M+S+F+T = 17
Split 14 dice.

(on this last one, your method would be to split 12 dice, let's say 4, 4, 4, then add +6 to the first, +2 to the second, and +5 to the third, for 10/6/9, or 25 dice)

You can use all the mechanical dice pool rules in any way you want, but the most useful way to deal with Uncapped Magic attributes in any games is very simple.

Geek the Mage.

It's what the entire world knows to do about any mage.

Go ahead, get your Magic attribute as high as you want. Shadowrun universe always has more dice.

Quoted for Truth. What more need be said? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And how do you recognize the mage?

It's the one casting spells! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Or we could just go "split the Attribute + Skill, add modifiers to appropriate pools." Because that's simpler (oh Occam's Razor) and it works for doing any two skills at the same time. Casting Stunbolt and firing a gun?

Smaller of Agility + Guns and Magic + Spellcasting, split, then add modifiers.

First, my logic is not complicated unless you failed third grade arithmetic.

Second, the simplest solution is not always the best. Occam's razor is for help in determining the correct path to get to equivalent endpoints, not for selecting the better endpoint.

Third, you can't cast a spell and fire a gun on one action. The only two mechanics that are even remotely supported for splitting dice pools are multiple firearms, or multiple spells. There's likewise no "drive a car and shoot a gun" dice pool split. Everything else (other than these two specific split actions) requires individual actions. You're thinking of White Wolf.

Having never played a White Wolf game, no I'm not.
Second, what I just did was find a solution that works for all cases. I don't see why I couldn't drive a car and shoot a gun at the same time.

Side note:



And? That's how it works for shooting different guns.

6 Agl, 4 skill, spec, tacnet 4:

6+4 = 10, split 5/5

5/5 + spec = 7/5

7/5 + tacnet 4 = 11/9 or 18 total dice. Compared to 16 for shooting the one (spec) gun.

Because by the rules of the game you have to spend an action to drive the car and a different action to shoot the gun.

There are no other cases. The only dice pool splitting in the main rules are for firing two firearms, and casting multiple spells. Actually there's room for splitting melee attacks, but it simply says: "The attacker’s dice pool is split between each attack, and each attack is handled separately." This is not very helpful.

As I said earlier, there are no generic mechanics for splitting dice pools. There are certainly no generic rules for combining multiple actions.

Minus the block of text on firing multiple guns, it takes an action to shoot a gun and a different action to shoot another gun, no?

Correct. However, shooting two firearms at once is allowed as a single action by that specific block of text you're talking about.

Where are you going with this? You essentially just said that if were written differently it would say something different.

Actually there is mention of using multiple skills together in the books (Other than shooting or Spellcasting). It references using the smaller of the pools, split, and then adding appropriate modifiers to each split. Not sure exactly where it is currently, as I am not with my Resources.

Oh, oh, oh, by the way.



How do you know that?

No where in the spellcasting section does it mention taking the smallest pool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Double double post post.

I've run a search on the word "split" (includes "splitting") through the main PDFs. The only game mechanic references for splitting dice pools are the multiple firearm, multiple melee, and multiple spell sections.

There is also an odd Sprite power (Assault) with its own weird half-Pilot-rating + full Complex Form mechanic.

He's making up rules as he goes along.

If your master plan here is to point out that I don't play using bad interpretations of ambiguous rules, you're late to that party.

The first line of the post you quoted:



In the face of ambiguity, I side with my RPG experience and the very helpful document released by the game developers, where they explained the rule as it's intended. You know, for actual games.

Where I have a problem is, in the middle of a discussion about the power level of Magic, we have to drag out the old hat: "something something something why don't you just throw 4 stunbolts at it because it's so easy et cetera and so forth." And then the presumption is that the character is going to be designed to blatantly take advantage of a poorly worded rule whose literal meaning is ambiguous (and incomplete), by squeezing 8 dice out of a 2 point specialization and 16 dice out of a rating 4 spellcasting focus, all on the same action.

Well yes, now magic seems overpowered, if you're going to stipulate that all of your assumptions are true. But they're not RAW.