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longbowrocks
post Apr 28 2011, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE (Dahrken @ Apr 27 2011, 10:55 PM) *
You need a sustaining focus for each spell, with a Force that is at least as high as the Force of the spell it sustains. So sutaining say 4 buff spells of Force 13 will need 4 Force 13 sustaining focus - and the karma to bind them.

Ah, I see it now. Thanks. Dunno where I came up with that other rule.
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Rasumichin
post Apr 28 2011, 01:58 PM
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@Longbowrocks :
Regarding the astral targetting, yes, an astrally perceiving mage can target subjects on the physical plane. If he can see them normally as well, with a physical sense.
Astral perception doesn't hinder targetting on the material plane. but with astral perception alone, you can only lock on to astral/dual-natured targets.

There's a few neat tricks enabled by how the issue is handled (for example, you can manaball a group of spirits or ghouls without risking to hit your non-dual natured teammates stuck between them), but astral perception does nothing against a mundane opponent just taking cover.
I think the rules also suggest to apply partial cover modifiers to spellcasting tests (they also suggest modifiers for casting at really long ranges, together with the -3 penalty for casting through optical devices like mage sight goggles, binoculars or endoscopes).
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longbowrocks
post Apr 28 2011, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Apr 28 2011, 06:58 AM) *
@Longbowrocks :
Regarding the astral targetting, yes, an astrally perceiving mage can target subjects on the physical plane. If he can see them normally as well, with a physical sense.
Astral perception doesn't hinder targetting on the material plane. but with astral perception alone, you can only lock on to astral/dual-natured targets.

I can see that being RAI, but I don't see anything specifying that as RAW. Could you cite something? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)
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Irion
post Apr 28 2011, 04:08 PM
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I wonder a bit. We have mentioned a lot of modifiers here. I wonder if a mage (considering all of them) es even able to cast a spell.
He needs one net hit to effect anything after all.

So lets get started: Our mage trys to scare of some grangers in the barrens of seatle.

First we apply the BC of 1 which is said to be present in the Barrens.
Lets put the scene in around around 10 o clock pm. So it is quite dark.
And we are in Seatle so it is raining a bit.

So with normal sight we would be down by -5!
With Astral Vision we would be at: -3.

If you think of combat and apply partial cover or even good cover for everyone you go down to: -7(-9) or -5(-7).
The avarage mage would be crippeled in such a situation.

If you start applying all the modifiers (from camelion suite or the Camouflage spell it is getting even worse.
QUOTE
The camouflage
coloring adds a –1 dice pool modifier to
standard visual Perception Tests and ranged
combat attacks made against the subject for
each net hit scored by the caster.

(And how does the mana version interact with astral perception)
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longbowrocks
post Apr 28 2011, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 28 2011, 09:08 AM) *
With Astral Vision we would be at: -3.

Why would astral vision be affected by darkness? Is this in a table somewhere?
QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 28 2011, 09:08 AM) *
If you start applying all the modifiers (from camelion suite or the Camouflage spell it is getting even worse.

You sent me racing through the books on this one. There is no chameleon suite, it's a suit, which I don't think would help against astral perception because it's optical camo.
Camouflage spell looks similar.
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Irion
post Apr 28 2011, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE
There is no chameleon suite

Just a typo, sorry for that.

QUOTE
Why would astral vision be affected by darkness? Is this in a table somewhere?

There is an astral visibility table in Streetmagic.
BC gives a malus and it depends on how many lifeforms there are. etc.
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Rasumichin
post Apr 28 2011, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 28 2011, 05:04 PM) *
I can see that being RAI, but I don't see anything specifying that as RAW. Could you cite something? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)



SR4A, p. 183, Targeting :

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted
). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magi-
cian can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence.


Emphasis mine. When you are assensing a physical, non-dual-natured target, you only see the aura. Your aura is not an astral form, it cannot be targeted by spellcasting on the astral.
Likewise, you couldn't target an astrally projecting mage who is manifesting unless you would change to astral perception. You only see a ghost-like image that he is casting on a plane he isn't actually present on. The same holds true for the auras of mundanes : they are not actually present on the astral. They are particularly vibrant shadows of an entirely physical entity.
This is why being a dual-natured being (ghoul, shapeshifter) is such a pain in the ass- in contrast to everyone else in the game, you can be targeted by projecting mages all the time.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 28 2011, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Apr 28 2011, 09:54 AM) *
Emphasis mine. When you are assensing a physical, non-dual-natured target, you only see the aura. Your aura is not an astral form, it cannot be targeted by spellcasting on the astral.
Likewise, you couldn't target an astrally projecting mage who is manifesting unless you would change to astral perception. You only see a ghost-like image that he is casting on a plane he isn't actually present on. The same holds true for the auras of mundanes : they are not actually present on the astral. They are particularly vibrant shadows of an entirely physical entity.
This is why being a dual-natured being (ghoul, shapeshifter) is such a pain in the ass- in contrast to everyone else in the game, you can be targeted by projecting mages all the time.

Thanks. This is something I've been misinterpreting for a while to varying degrees.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 28 2011, 05:05 PM
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I find this excerpt more important:
QUOTE
An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space.
It's only astrally *projecting* mages that can't target physical-only things. I'm only emphasizing this, not correcting anyone. I am not aware that you're in any way hindered by not using a natural sense; blind mages can target physical things while astral-perceiving. You still need a physical LOS, but astral sight needs that *anyway*. There've been some major threads about this, and the rules have changed significantly between editions.

In any case, this issue is the main reason mages often get vision augmentations: avoid astral vulnerability, and increase sighting options.
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Manunancy
post Apr 28 2011, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE
Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted).


My intepretation of it is that this rule applies when the mage is purely astral - otherwise they wouldn't bother with using the next paragraph to specify that a mage in astral perception can target either ot the astral or physical plane. This second paragraph doesn't differentiate between eyeball or assensing targeting - so either method should work.

Basically when the mage is on one side of the fence, he can only target what's effectively present on his side - but when he's stradling it through astral perception (or whatever way to achieve a dual-nature) he can target both sides - though only one side with a given spell, and a spell selection that's influenced by the chosen side (namely, mana spells only when casting through the astral, and maybe a few astral-only spells disabled in the pyscial plane).
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 28 2011, 05:29 PM
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Exactly.
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The Jopp
post Jun 17 2011, 08:23 AM
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Here's an interesting twist.

There is the "carrier" negative quality at 5 points.

One could use that one but add different diseases, somewhat creating a living pandoras box of diseases walking around.
There could be balance issues so the GM should monitor exactly WHAT the diseases do.

That way a character could have the following fun.

Amnesia
Carrier (Disease)
Carrier (Disease)
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Manunancy
post Jun 17 2011, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jun 17 2011, 10:23 AM) *
Here's an interesting twist.

There is the "carrier" negative quality at 5 points.

One could use that one but add different diseases, somewhat creating a living pandoras box of diseases walking around.
There could be balance issues so the GM should monitor exactly WHAT the diseases do.

That way a character could have the following fun.

Amnesia
Carrier (Disease)
Carrier (Disease)


That's something I would totally ban as a GM - and certainly not tolerate as a player a soon as I figure it out. Because even the the character isn't harmed by what he's carrying, the other PCs arent - and will probably the first to catch it. With a TPK (bat the carrier) a likely result if the diseases are bad enough. It reeks of 'I wanna destroy the game' playstyle.

Even for an NPC I'd be wary of it - and strongly dislike it from the GM as it will have a strong feeling of 'I'm going to screw you and enjoy it and there's nothing you can do about it or even to see it coming'. Season with as much evil cackling and hand-rubbing as necessary.
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The Jopp
post Jun 17 2011, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jun 17 2011, 11:53 AM) *
That's something I would totally ban as a GM - and certainly not tolerate as a player a soon as I figure it out. Because even the the character isn't harmed by what he's carrying, the other PCs arent - and will probably the first to catch it. With a TPK (bat the carrier) a likely result if the diseases are bad enough. It reeks of 'I wanna destroy the game' playstyle.


Wouldn't this apply then to any one player that wants to play a Ghoul, even Gary the friendly Ghoul? After all, unless they take a quality for it they will be carriers as well.
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HunterHerne
post Jun 17 2011, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jun 17 2011, 08:11 AM) *
Wouldn't this apply then to any one player that wants to play a Ghoul, even Gary the friendly Ghoul? After all, unless they take a quality for it they will be carriers as well.


True, but HMHVV, even the Ghoul one, needs some kind of physical contact, such as biting/scratching/spitting in their soyburger.
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nezumi
post Jun 17 2011, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jun 17 2011, 06:53 AM) *
That's something I would totally ban as a GM - and certainly not tolerate as a player a soon as I figure it out. Because even the the character isn't harmed by what he's carrying, the other PCs arent - and will probably the first to catch it. With a TPK (bat the carrier) a likely result if the diseases are bad enough. It reeks of 'I wanna destroy the game' playstyle.


I also wouldn't be TOO worried about it, it all depends on the vector. I've yet to see characters share blood. They don't get into melee combat with each other or (generally) bite each other. Same with sex. You can have even more esoteric vectors (or limitations on who is vulnerable). A mage who is carrier for a mage-attacking disease in a party with no other mages is fine.
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Manunancy
post Jun 17 2011, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 17 2011, 02:59 PM) *
I also wouldn't be TOO worried about it, it all depends on the vector. I've yet to see characters share blood. They don't get into melee combat with each other or (generally) bite each other. Same with sex. You can have even more esoteric vectors (or limitations on who is vulnerable). A mage who is carrier for a mage-attacking disease in a party with no other mages is fine.


It can ary with the disease - and the point cost should reflect this. But the post I answered to left the feeling the diseases would fall into the 'nasty and contagious' slot, turnign the character into a 2070's Thyphoid Mary. An STD affecting only sheeps would deserve a forceful slap on th head rather than any sort of points (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

Though a character that turns out danger to any mage he interacts with is going to quickly have problems finding spell formulas and other magical gear. Odds are he can kiss any magical group goodbye too.
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