And yes, I am looking at you, you know who you are.


The following questions might seem obvious, but my group has run into trouble handling them, so I'd like some advice from GMs more experienced.
So, there are characters who are into sneaking: stealing things, setting explosives, whatever. That requires some infiltration and some teamwork on their side, and as long as only tech security with some human backup is involved, everything works fine.
Now, as soon as we throw the mages into the equation, everything gets a bit more complicated.

First, is there a way to fool detection spells like Detect Life? With the amount of detail it gives, everything a wagemage has to do is have it sustained at Extended range, and be aware of anyone entering the compound?

Second, how do you deal with spirits stealthily? With Watchers, you could at least try fooling them - say, with the team's mage placing a wall before them (but that still raises questions like "wouldn't it try to go around the wall" and "if I cover it with a dome-shaped barrier, won't the wagemage lose his connection to the watcher and feel that?"). But what about the full-fledged spirits?

Also in what comes to mages, rules state that a mage can cast as far as he can see - but a metahuman can see as far as several dozen kilometers, especially with cybereyes!

Third, sure SR4 makes hacking more streamlined, but is there a way to deal with tech security without a hacker on call and without telling everyone that you've been there? Do you just let your infiltrators roll Infiltration against the cams/guards monitoring the cams, whatever the circumstances, even with a shadowrunning traversing a typical empty office corridor under the electronic eyes?
Also, each hack means a chance to warn the security you're there - how do you handle failures when hacking on the fly?

Barriers don't stop the summoner connection… it's not radio. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, casting a barrier'd be something noticeable.

Yes, mages can cast far.

Infiltration works against cameras and sensors, when reasonably possible.

Hacking failures typically raise Alarms; alarm responses are in the book, including a little random table.

Neat answer that contains zero information, actually meaning "up to GM".
What is "reasonably possible"? Tech security descriptions don't have much on Infiltration usage - which sensors do you consider to be beatable?

Core book responses are ultra-retarded. "Come on boys, some script kiddie just scanned our host, let's reboot it and drop the thousands of our users! 99.99%! Here go our bonuses!"

Considering that Vehicles roll Infiltration(+reaction+handling, infil capped by pilot skill) to sneak past sensors, and that metahumans may oppose sensor tests in the same way with agi+infiltration, and that specific sensors are example specializations of the Infiltration skill...

Yes, infiltration works against sensors.

And don't forget to account for the metahuman signature of -3.

Regarding the Spirit/Summoner link detailed in street magic: I don't believe a mana barrier will cut it off. watcher spirits are also absolutely terrible at noticing detail. two dice is begging to glitch each time they role. and they can't even buy a hit.

Never had it come up in a game yet, but based on the numbers I always wondered why players were so keen on avoiding the patrol area of a watcher spirit. Limited to a Force of 1 means a DP of 2 for Perception (as Udoshi mentioned). Even a player experienced in playing a magician was leery about trying to sneak past a watcher when spotting one on a patrol. However, there are more creative ways to use watchers to guard places and/or things (taken from SM, the watcher sits inside the vault waiting for a safe cracker to open it).

As for hacking, the security response should be reflected on the type of node. Some nodes will reboot as an absolute last resort, having a patrolling IC or two instead to attack hackers on sight. Also, a node may not reboot at all, letting a spider or agent trace the hacker's physical location while said hacker thinks he/she is still in the clear. Super high security nodes may not even be connected to the matrix at all if there's no need for it (like a factory's security system node, while a separate marketing node is easily accessible online).

As for the Detect Life spell, it looks like an opposed Magic + Spellcasting vs. Willpower + Counterspelling as soon as one enters the area. Having the party magician protect the others with Counterspelling and score enough hits to at least tie the detecting magician's Spellcasting hits and the detecting magician gets nothing even though the spell is still up and running. Probably one of the few cases where a Detection Counterspelling focus is useful.

Security systems skills should be helpful to any sort of infiltration. It's very difficult to evade a sensor you don't understand or expect. It's much easier if you recognize the model and therefore know it's limitations. Or at least know that you don't want to go that route.

Don't forget, cover and infiltration works against Assensing as ll. The Infiltrators won't get the bonuses from all the neat gimmicks (like Ruzthenium Polymers or Camouflage suits) but they can still remain out of sight. You may want to apply a negative modifier since they can't know where the observer will be.

In most facilities, a magicians detect life spell would return far too much information to be useful, the human mind is not a computer.

Patrolling spirits and the like are usually more on the look out for astral intruders. They have an easier time seeing astral forms that auras, and honestly spirits don't usually understand much about the human activity going on in the physical plane, and are not likely to care about a couple of auras unless they are doing something really suspicious.

So basically, unless a spirit is set to watch a specific area for a specific action, they are likely to get a penalty on their assessing check to notice intruders if they bother to make a check at all. There are guards, drones, cameras, and dogs to see the mundane intruders. The real danger spirits pose to mundane intruders is if an alarm gets triggered, and they come to fight them as part of their service. Of course, if there is a patrolling astral magician all bets are off, but most facilities can't afford to keep one of those around all the time.

Also note, that the skill isn't stealth, it's infiltration. It's not just silent movement and hiding behind cover, it's a wide range of techniques to avoid being detected, including bypassing sensors, and acting in a way as to not draw astral attention.

As others have said magic is not any more fool proof when it comes to detecting intruders then cameras and drones. Assensing/Astral perception of the material world is not an exact science and it might be hard to spot a metahumans aura.

Now on your technical question the runners are going to have more difficulty. Certainly just avoiding the monitoring guards (and agents don't forget agents, their cheaper then real guards) is a matter of iniltration or disguise vs perception. The real issue your going to face however is if the run doesn't go completely unnoticed eventually the security logs are going to be scrtinized, and then it's almost guaranteed your noticed. What they can do with that information depends on other precations your players take, masks, disguises and other things to obscure who they are will help a lot. They do have options most obvious way if you don't care if the run goes unnoticed or not is just getting access to the backups and destroying them. Similarly cameras can be shot out, but there goes your stealth option.

The final option the runners have if they don't want to sub contract for hacking services is agents, their not as good as having a real hacker at their disposable, but they are better then nothing and might be able to neutralize individual wireless enabled cameras or wireless ones you can get access to their wiring.

extensive Legwork to find out guard routes, security systems etc, should give them some bonus. If they invest time and money to bribe the guard on duty, this should be rewarded heavily.

A lot was said about spirits, who are still limited by walls and ceilings. And their limited understanding of how to identify intruders from personal. So are Mages. LOS is everything in SR.

There are a lot of sensors described in the core rule book. And cameras usually have blind spots and/or game watching sec guards on the other end. Agents have really weak dice pools for perception through sensor test. Not every facility has Rating 6 equipment, while runners usually do.

*shrug* I thought 'when reasonable' was pretty obvious. You can't hide from sensors with 100% coverage (empty room with overlapping cameras, or when walking through a cyberware scanner), but that's basically never the situation.

As for alarms, you don't *have* to use the random response. They're examples. Use your brain, GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I always thought that you have to be aware of being watched to roll Infiltration against Perception. For mundane infiltrators and watchers on Astral watching for auras, this is not the case.

So, for offline hosts, you have to tag a hacker along; for Detect spells which don't work beyond the fence, you have to bring your mage, too? That's some infiltration for you.

Yeah, we've discussed it before, I believe. However, see above - how can you try to avoid detection by something you're not aware about?

Well, the rules put it like this:
The thing is, for infiltrators and not faces, most infiltration attempts happen during the off hours, when the facilities aren't all that crowded.

You can order a spirit to inform you about any auras in its patrol area not in a predetermined set. What in the rules is stopping it from executing that command successfully, without any kind of penalties?

Well, those that are worth penetrating can. The only way to deal with one I see is spotting him before he spots you (say, with your own projecting mage), and then using Infiltration to avoid detection; am I missing something?

Okay, I should have said earlier - we're talking facilities with competent personnel here, like zero zones, triple A black R&D centers, what have you.
In what comes to blind zones - have you ever been to places with actual cam-based security? Not shops, where cams monitor the shelves and can be fooled, but actual enterprises where cams are used for intrusion detection? Just hang a cam right over the door from the inside - and I can hardly imagine a way to enter without being spotted; same goes for corridors and most rooms.

"Use your own judgment" and "think for yourself" are hardly constructive answers; if I wanted to go with my current rulings I wouldn't be asking for your opinions.

There is no reason I can think of that you need to be aware of being watched when you are attempting to be sneaky. Similar logic applied in reverse would indicate that you don't get a perception roll unless you know that someone is sneaking in and are going to look for them.

If you can be vigilante about looking around you can be vigilante about hiding from as many possible sensors/watchers as you can imagine, which includes pretty much everything for a reasonably intelligent infiltrator. If you have problems with astral people not being able to spot mundane infiltrators well enough then go ahead and slap some modifiers on astral perception or sneaking or what have you.

I mostly agree, but I'd recommend a positive bonus to the astral observer rather then a dice pool penalty to the infiltrator. His sneaking ability isn't reduced from an unknown observer, he isn't more likely to glitch, etc. But the observer is more likely to observe if it has excellent positioning.

If the observer has regular positioning then it should only get bonuses from aura contrast and low background count, etc, and the infiltrator doesn't get a perception test to spot the guy that might see him. Which might mean as he walks closer and closer the observer gets more chances to spot with better positioning circumstance bonuses, assuming the infiltrator moves towards the observer.

Just my take.

I would just like to say as someone who helps build rooms and security, sensors never have 100% coverage, at least IRL anyways. There are always crawl spaces and if there isn't one, you can make one - interior walls are mostly for looks and even exterior walls unless specifically designed are ridiculously easy to find or make an opening in for anyone familiar with the tools and the layouts of walls. We don't build many log cabins these days and even insulated concrete forms rarely go all the way to the roof and only a bit harder to make an opening in then metal, wood, plastic, and glass. And don't think there is a crawl space? How do they maintain the security sensor system anyways?

Here come the con-artistry, disguises and sheet/box made of material of whatever the sensors are blind to...

Oh, and for the astral, if its really a big worry, I suggest vermin or flash crowds for false positives and omni-directional cover like a box or ... holy crap, why hasn't anyone tried some sort of ball before, like meta-human gerbil ball or something? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Its like you've never watched The Hunted, Burn Notice, The Saint, Bourne (series) etc before, for a GM willing to see the possibilities, everything should have a chance to be Infiltrated, IMHO. Remember, Shadow is part of Shadowrunner, too many focus only on the Running part.

Uh, imagine that you're in a room with some good cover in it - say, a cubicle wall running its length, along the way you need to go. Somewhere in this room is a cam, but you can't see it. Which side of the wall should you sneak along not to be spotted by the cam? You don't know.
Infiltration is mostly built around avoiding the sensors' fields of vision - if you don't know where those are, what good are your techniques?

I believe Dakka Dakka noted that the runner is not getting the bonuses from his tech toys against astral observers - and it's obviously true, since your ruthenium suit is not hiding your aura at all.

Uh, why would you need 100% coverage, when you just have to reliably cover the choke points?
And yeah, you can blast through walls, but that's hardly "leave-no-trace" infiltration then, is it?

I got the impression that when the system is being serviced, noone cares about the alarms, since they're forewarned, and a guard watches over the temporarily blind spot. That's how they did it where I worked, at least.

Reading Detect Life spell description, I don't see anything about walls or much less boxes blocking it. Or anything less than a crowd making it useless, so that'll have to be a lot of vermin.

Thank you. This is one place where an RL example helps since the books don't specify whether you can get 100% coverage on security.

That's not actually true because if you were avoiding the field of vision then you aren't making a test now are you, you just don't get observed. Unless you are using very abstract sorts of rolls where someone is breaking through an entire facility with one roll.

Infiltration is things like, making yourself a small target, moving in a way that doesn't attract attention, blending in with your surroundings via camo/ruthenium, making little noise etc. Those things assume that you are being observed but don't require it. There is a large degree of psychological engineering to it as well. If you know what sensors in general look for to say HEY PERSON, whether it is movement, heat signature, or outline, you can confuse it.

I think it's pretty simple how the basic detect life spell works. It's like you can see the location of every living thing within a certain radius, but you can't tag or color code or other wise attain additional information. It would be odd to "see" life forms coming through the front gate at midnight, but if they keep up a normal pace, it might seem more plausible. Once the runners are inside the building, There shouldn't be much danger from detect life as long as they act like patrolling guards (regardless of what they look like).

Kinda house ruling there. It's vague, since our GM does that, but there's a grey area covering this whole concept. If you describe your actions carefully enough, then you can use this play style to skip out on a large number of rolls. That's no fun for the guys who are being marginalized because they invested in relevant skills, but can't keep up with your meta-knowledge on the subject.
I think a better way to do it is like this:
If I play a street sammy/infiltrator who wants admin access to a facility that runs on Windows, I'll aid my hacker buddy by infiltrating the facility for him and maybe take a small drone with me so he can work his magic on the computers "in person". I won't just burn OphCrack to a CD and do the whole thing myself (I'd reconsider if the hacker does it). It's all about separation of duties to make sure everyone gets to play.

I agree it can be annoying to let meta-knowledge sideline certain character archetypes and I try to avoid it wherever possible. However, if you have to decide between laying out a camera network with 100% coverage and telling an infiltrator that they can't get through it and laying down a single camera with a blind spot and having them walk through the blindspot with no check, I find the second option much less painful. I find the best way to deal with carefully described actions is to award modifiers, so in the case of the camera blind spot you can say "well here is a +1-4 bonus for being so smart, now roll infiltration".

I can agree with that.

Fatum, the fact that you can criticize the random alarm table as 'ultra-retarded' shows you must know what good is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Therefore, you have the tools necessary to use the table's suggestions effectively. I wasn't blowing you off, I was pointing you to a resource that you apparently know how to use already. If you didn't, you couldn't judge it, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the other, again, I answered a direct question you asked: "Do you just let your infiltrators roll Infiltration against the cams/guards monitoring the cams" … Answer: yes. I'm sorry if that wasn't helpful enough, but *I* certainly wasn't being unhelpful. It's important to keep things simple.

Well, I just take Infiltration a little broader - not just sneaking through the cam's field of vision, but sneaking through its blind spot, knowing where it is. And yet still, if you're not aware what kind of sensors are present, how are you countering them?

Please read the table on page 206, "Detection spell results". On a good roll, it's showing "Completely detailed information", up to personalities, health states, activities and what have you.

There's a difference between "Yes" and "Yes, when reasonably possible; so sometimes no, use your own judgment".

Indeed it is.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm sorry my 'reasonable' caveat was unclear. *I* knew I meant 'basically always', but of course you didn't know I meant that. I didn't want to say '100% yes' and be misleading in the other direction.