Oh. Thank you for your opinion, then; sorry for my grumpiness :3

I think you can certainly attempt Infiltration against an observer you can't see, because otherwise you might get an impossible situation:

A and B are both sneaking around and trying to avoid being seen by the other. They haven't yet spotted each other.

Now if the GM wants to resolve A's stealth first, it turns out A can't hide from B because he hasn't found B yet, so A fails to hide from B. Now B knows where A is, and he can attempt Infiltration against A's Perception.

Or if the GM wants to resolve B first, then B can't hide from A, but A can hide from B.

Or if the GM says he'll administer them simultaneously, then A and B both fail to hide because they haven't yet found the other, so it turns out it's impossible to miss someone if you're both trying to get missed.

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In the game, it's a contest between the security team and the infiltrator; if the team is good, they have a lot of dice to prevent infiltration. If the infiltrator is good, he has a lot of dice to infiltrate. All those dice represent lots and lots of tricks of the trade that we as armchair generals on Dumpshock may not even know about.

If cameras are set at really clever places, then bypassing them is hard (high threshold). But it's hubris to think that we on Dumpshock know quite as much about stealth as someone with an Infiltration score of 6, so things we think are impossible may not actually be impossible.

Actually, I think most of us know more about organizing security than we know about how to get around it, but that's just a guess.

For what it's worth in a lot of situations, especially wilderness stealth, your not trying to remain unobserved against a specific target but one that might potentially be there, that person being an astrally percieving spirit or a deer or a sentry doesn't really change that basic abstract equation. Some of your techniques might change and refine but that's what the stealth group skills represent a working knowledge of how to apply those techniques.

I do feel it would be very hard to pull off a sixth world infiltration specialisti without a working knowledge of both tech and magic. If your players don't want to break their skills out of their comfort zone i think it's perfectly reasonable to punish that, but I think auto failures or it's impossible should be rather sparing.

at the moment the player says "I wanna roll Infiltration", he's stating, that his char will assume any detection sensors he can think of and the skill includes any counteraction necessary. If he's just running into it blindly ignoring the possible threat of detection equipment, he's not really a shadowrunner, is he?

Agreed: Infiltration means 'taking any relevant precautions'. It's based on a broad understanding of potential threats.

For example, if you are not aware that they are using FLIR you are not likely planning on how to not leave warm trails as you slowly crawl through the motion sensors.

Astral lighting and such is almost 100% opposite from real world.

Someone hiding in a dark corner is going to shine like a lantern on the astral against a mundane drab backrop. Remember life shines out on the astral... while you can try to hide your aura. Even worse... if you 'hide' in a dark corner where normal cameras and such are unlikely to see you, you stand out more.

Sneaking in astral is more a matter of hiding your own aura among others or completely out of sight.

Logic + Infiltration would be used by a mage infiltrating while astrally projecting. Which in a way makes sense as astral infiltration is less about moving quickly and quietly and more about outthinking any potential observers who could be almost anywhere at anytime.



How to put this... if you're dressed like a janitor walking around the building like you belong there. You won't stand out to an astral observer just another mundane about his business about the joint. On the other hand if you're very obviously acting like a ninja.... that should stand out to an astral observer. Then again.. in a small facility the spirit might be trained to recognize a list of 'approved' auras... in which case you'd need masking to imitate one of them. Or the spirit might be detailed to guard a specific area of a larger facility where only a few people are cleared for entry.

Astral security makes infiltration MUCH harder... but it doesn't make it impossible.

Honestly, sneaking about suspiciously is usually bad inside a corp facility anyways. It's remarkably hard to sneak past a guard or camera in a hallway, but no one notices an extra wage slave or janitor. What you didn't take the disguise skill?

You see, the problem here is that different sensors require different kinds of actions, and you can't possibly be doing everything at the same time. Say, ultrasound motion sensors require you to move very slowly to traverse them, while it'd make sense to move very quickly past a low-FPS cam. You can't do both at the same time. A bunch of sensors, like trip beams or proximity wires, just work as soon as you get close/past them - if you don't know they are there, how's high Infiltration roll helping?

I agree with Ascalaphus that this ruling makes for some rather strange situations, but at least it's not against the common sense (and you can always make an exception for a case like the one described).

So, you necessarily need to be Awakened to be a successful infiltrator? Is that what you're saying? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Even in relatively large facilities, with about a hundred employees, there are guards who know every employee by sight; when you see them each day, it's not that difficult.
Sure you could disguise as some actual employee, but that's far into the face territory.

Don't forget about technology. Facial recognition, biometrics, radio trackers, etc.

Yeah, I still don't see how any half-decent security setup doesn't put biomonitors on everyone on the facility and use them to track people... When you see guards getting knocked/out killed you know you have a problem...

That was one of the things I didn't like about one of a recent series of very high magic games... drones and cyber-security were pretty much non-existent even in major corp facilities.

The topic is called "... stealth". Disguise is in the Stealth group, isn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Look, if you are trying to find a reason as GM for your GM fiat ruling, just do it ok? You really are coming across as trying to find anyway to just go "Infiltration is impossible, that karma you spent on that skill was a waste."

Take careful note here, I said nothing about blasting through walls, yet in my experience and interest in construction (carpentry, electrical, plumbing, iron work, HVAC, etc) has informed me that it is dreadfully easy to enter most homes and buildings these days by a number of means than the front door for one simple reason: utilities and air must enter and exit a building on a constant basis or that building is tomb. Even safes need their enviroments controlled to protect the things we seal in them, so things like electricity, air, water, and so forth must flow or people have to wear suits that allow them to continue living for any significant amount of time as they work or pass through a air tight sealed enviroment.

Your choke points aren't really choke points, they are check points, the camera doesn't actually stop anyone, it just informs who ever is watching the sensor at that time or watching the recording later. Think of infiltration not just as the sniper in a ghilli suit moving through a forest, covering their tracks, picking the least noticeable route, and setting up their hide for the hunt by the water source but as the person who moves through a crowd unnoticed, or looks indistinguishable from a wage slave, corp sec, or corp big wig with their body language and gait. Did you know that when you are walking through a crowd, you can effectively disappear by bending your knees, slouching, and thus lowering your head below the sea of heads, for instance? And infiltration is not just being unseen, but being seen and being beneath regard, blending in with the regular ebb and flow.

And if it has to be unseen, then Infiltration is also the use of Knowledge skills to Actively and skillfully place oneself where there is least likely to be observation, choke points should be easily spotted by a infiltrator and bypassed by any number of means that are required by maintenance and the preservation of the lives of those who work there, including meta-human corp sec. And even if there is a sensor, what type of sensor is it? All sensors have different blind spots, infiltrators make it a point to be aware of these (see: specializations of Infiltration ... which a GM has the freedom to add more to). What wavelength your sensors are on makes a big difference in what kinds of shadows/blind spots they end up having and a skilled infiltrator can account for that. Check out this lil'tid bit from a Burn Notice episode for instance: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1082942/goofs
That goof is actually used in another episode where the lead character uses a sheet to be invisible to a sensor as he infiltrates a server room ... twice, just before someone not as skilled as him at infiltration screws it up and is detected.

There sure is a lot of synergy between Disguise, Infiltration, and Shadowing IMHO. There is a reason there is a Stealth group, surely. I think there is some definite value in looking to other entertainment that features the Stealth Skill Group highly, seeing as this is fantasy/fictional entertainment we are engaged in as well and just might expand your GM imagination a bit so you aren't ruling Infiltration as being useless so much unless they don't roll enough successes.

I know what you mean... I couldn't ever see not buying the stealth group as a whole.
Disguise, shadowing, infiltration, and palming are all usefull skills.


While some people go nuts on infiltration... almost every skill in the group is critical. An it's one of the few groups w/ 4 skills instead of 3 making it an unmitigated bargain.

In no way I am saying that infiltration is impossible by design; but I've run into several problems when GMing said infiltration episodes, and I'm asking for advice, because I feel that my rulings kinda ruin the whole suspension of disbelief thing. If you read the topic carefully, you'll notice at least two (arguably, three) ways for any mundane infiltration attempt to fail regardless of the infiltrator's skill. I see it as a problem, because players like to infiltrate (and mine make for some surprisingly bad faces, as far as actual roleplaying and not dicepools is concerned).

I must have misinterpreted that "ridiculously easy to [...] make an opening in for anyone familiar with the tools" bit in your original post in this topic.
However, while I can't claim to be a real specialist, I've been doing some cabling work for my workplace - Ethernet mostly, of course. I've seen enough of both the air ducts and cable channels running through walls. None of those require human-sized openings. Okay, maybe building-wide cabling channels, but you can't get much further than the floor-wide service room through those, anyway.
Besides, any decent security force have those monitored, as well, and often better than the obvious approaches - since the chance that any given signature there is an intruder and not an employee is that much higher.

Turrets can make it into a chokepoint; but are we really arguing terminology here?

See above for my problems with that - basically, while this take on infiltration surely is possible (although magical security can ruin it, too), it's for faces, not infiltrators - and it's just not what infiltrator players want to do.

Fine, what are the blind spots for proximity wires or pressure pads? As far as I am aware, the core book lists none. So in the best case, the infiltration burns down to "wait for the hacker to hack the security host and turn all those toys off, then do your job". And even that requires a good deal of GM fiat, since what kind of secure compound has its host accessible from the outside?


What's the use for Palming? Or Shadowing on the same level as Infiltration or Disguise, for that matter, too - how often do you really need it?

You have to suspend disbelief. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Infiltration works against *all* sensors because the book says it does. It's an abstract skill that includes all kinds of Mission Impossible stuff. It's on par with dodging a grenade.

How does this sound? make 1 infiltration check for the entire operation, and compare your hits to the rating of each device you come across. Or make one check per device you come across, or something of that nature. You fill in the blanks.

If you are really worried about them being able to sneak past defenses that they don't know about why not just substitute the Infiltration result for the Perception result or make them roll that in addition and limit the Infiltration hits to the perception hits or something along those lines. That way they notice measures and defeat them through the mad skill they have. Individual traps like pressure plates and proximity wires can be noticed before they go off if you feel like they have no reasonable way to pass them. However, there are rules in the Corebook for avoiding setting them off after you have stepped on them so it is conceivable that you can move in such a way that you can just walk through them if you are fast/agile enough, so even that stuff isn't unbeatable.

The more abstract your Infiltration roll the more actions it covers at once, but if you break it down into specifics sensors and arenas you still roll effectively the same dice for the action, you just have the possibility of more dice pool modifiers on both sides. If you are interested in making a hard spot to get through you can Infiltrate through the generic parts of the facility and make it a challenge to get over a particularly dense sensor net, or over a set of pressure plates, or something like that and make it a particular puzzle/obstacle.

No system is impenetrable, maybe there are some that you cannot infiltrate entirely by stealth, maybe you do need social engineering/disguise/hacking to get through, probably a combination of all three. There is a place for sensors and traps that the PCs do not know about as a way to catch them off guard. HOWEVER, the end result is that it has to be beatable, detectable, or avoidable in some fashion or you are just dicking them over/the Johnson is dicking them over. It's not really fun at that point, but if you are going to rule a particular system unbeatable just do it so your characters can invest their time/energy elsewhere.

Palming is used when you're trying to hide things like pistols. It's the skill which directly opposes perception. As well as the skill which allows you to do things like pickpocketing and the like. (you really didn't need that keycard did you?)

If you're trying to sneak a gun past a guard... So with palming can be the difference between a holdout and a real weapon (or someone sounding an alarm).


Shadowing is useful for doing legwork such as figuring out whose identity you need to borrow (or blackmail into aiding you). It's also important for knowing when people are doing legwork on you.

Shadowing + Intuition is used to notice when YOU"RE being tailed, not perception (when the hunter becomes the hunted).



Rather than worrying too much... give them the oppurtunity to actually do some legwork before their run and figure out what kind of security they're going to have to worry about. One thing a hacker can do is break in beforehand and download the buildings security plan. Similarly... they might try kidnapping a guard... interogating him then erasing his memory w/ something like laes.

I remember that Shadowing + Intuition can be used to notice being tailed in place of Perception, not that Perception is not the skill that should be used but Shadowing allows for someone with better Shadowing than Perception to have a better chance of spotting his tail.

You're right, I just double checked that... any stealth skill can be used in place of perception at the GM's option on an appropriate check.

So from that aspect... palming is the skill used to hide a gun on your body... but that same skill can also be used to frisk someone.

This, so much this. Yerameyahu, longbowrocks, and Falconer plainly get it as well.

Divide your dice rolls up about the On-site Legwork and/or Stealth as you, as GM, see fit in accordance with how much dice rolling aka time you want to spend on this particular activity.

Personally, I like the idea of Legwork and Knowledge Skills acting as a Teamwork Test (pg 65 SR4A) that can be used only for that particular mission to abstractly show its tangible benefit where just playing the role of a character isn't enough, due either to Player inability as an actor/writer or time constraints on over all play time. Yes, I am aware that is a house rule and YMMV.

This is some Mission: Impossible stuff, we need the abstraction of the dice because we the players aren't Shadowrunners, if we were we would have a lot more money and probably doing something like cliff diving with super models after a party with our favourite money launderer after a big score for entertainment if we weren't content with being a international criminal for the thrills and home life was the mask.

If the pretend security system that the characters are facing off against are really impossible aka GM fiat rather than just a threshold they could possibly have enough successes to get around unnoticed or unseen, then you really should be pretending that your Fixer sucks at his task of setting the Shadowrunners up with jobs from Mr J's that are more in line with there skill set, since apparently that Mr J is really looking for a group that doesn't give a shit if they are seen because they are ready for that with some masks, big guns, big mojo, bigger explosions, and fast get away vehicle(s) - which is fun too, it just may not be what your group of player characters is suited for if they plunked karma in the stealth group skills and expected it to be useful.

And I appreciate you did some wiring, then you are familiar with crawl spaces and maintenance access, even if that means a screw driver, a drill, and some method of making minor repairs ... just because they didn't realize they wanted a secret, hidden access panel there doesn't mean they can't have one now and bingo, bypassed that impossible chokepoint which now apparently includes a turret, which oddly enough works in the infiltrator's favour: just how do they get power and ammo to the turret? How big is the recess its hidden in? If not hidden, what is it anchored to? It can't shoot at what it doesn't detect with sensors, it would be rather odd if the thing was programmed to randomly shoot at the air ... and what is down range from that turret? I guess it is dystopia, a few "accidents" of a turret shooting corp sec and wage slaves is no biggie, right?

Hmm, how to imaginitively defeat sensor pads and proximity sensors ... well, they have a pretty hefty blind spot IMHO, anything not touching or near them is blind to it, so... Surely you see where this is going considering my thoughts on crawl spaces. Did they pressure pad the walls and ceiling too? Did they pressure pad the other side of the pressure pad? Proximity sensor, which kind? Those come in all different kinds of methods of finding range.

"But the character didn't see it!" Did you let them roll do legwork, knowledge skills, perception, disguise, and inflitration if detection is that vital? Did you give the character a chance to use their skills or just the player?

Really, all that should be a consideration here game mechanically is how high a threshold you want and the rest is just the use of your imagination to explain it however you want that is the most fun for the session with people who are presumably friendly and civil with you. If their characters come up with a out of this world, hair brained, once in a life time, lucky bastard scheme abstractly because their character rolled more dice than your extreme threshold (but not impossible because there is a threshold), what's the big deal?

And I am absolutely sure astral does not equal instant fail for infiltration, magic is even more abstract than pretending masters of stealth are possible.

Did that cover the 2 or 3 ways stealth insta fails apparently? I get it, you are wondering what your limits are within the setting and remaining true to Shadowrun, but lets be clear, the setting is all in the GM's head irregardless of what they write in the books, every game session is on some unique due to the vagaries of differences in how we all imagine things. The limits are only what you set them to be, if in your mind it is impossible, it will be - I am only trying to help open your mind up a bit to entertainment possibilities for your players sake, since they apparently have images in their minds of stealth being fun since they made their characters with those skills: meaningful, powerful, and entertaining.

you wouldn't believe what my stealth based dwarf can pickpocket from suits.

Fatum, I agree with part of your point. Solo infiltration is one of the most demanding and painfully difficult activities a shadowrunner can attempt. Cameras and other sensors can be placed so that your infiltrator MUST appear on them at some point. Hell, for the sufficiently paranoid, they can bug the bloody crawlspaces, HVAC, and wiring accesses, either with microdrones or with tiny fixed sensors. Then you have astral security, which has entirely different requirements for evading it. Honestly, with enough preparation from the security system's designers, a solo infiltration a la ninja can be pretty much impossible.

This is why you have a TEAM of shadowrunners.

Yeremayahu et al have already covered the fact that you CAN infiltrate past sensors (or really, past the agent/sprite/drone/sec guard/spirit/wagemage doing the monitoring). Some of these rolls are harder than others. Some of these rolls you as the GM may determine are pretty much impossible without edge. So you have your team help out.

A competent hacker can loop the cameras, cause random glitches in the sensors, make sure the HVAC ducts are unlocked, and cause the most aggravating distractions imaginable (short of a running gunfight). Many of these actions can negate the need for your infiltrator to make some of those impossible rolls. Yes, the hacker runs the risk of being detected as well. Yes this is a second chance to blow the mission. However, a facility will generally not have the same care put toward all aspects of its security. A place with top-notch matrix security may have sensor blind-spots you can exploit. A place with impenetrable physical security may be far more vulnerable when softened up by a preliminary hack or two.

Next, there is the problem of Astral security. It's generally invisible, and it can walk through walls. Unless the area you're infiltrating is warded. Then Astral security has to play by the same rules they set for the intruders... unless the mage who set up the wards is also the same guy who happens to be on shift at the time, so he can let himself and his spirits through the wards. How many hours a day does he work?

To deal with most any astral security setup, I recommend the Astrally-projecting Magician, with a few spirits that know the "Conceal" power. Conceal can be your very best friend, since the power explicitly works against astral detection. Anything that conceal won't help with (the aforementioned warded area, for example), the projecting mage can deal with, in one fashion or another. Have a watcher on hand to run messages back and forth between the overwatch hacker and the Astral mage.

So, yeah. I can see how you have a valid point about security systems being hard to beat as just a guy making an infiltration roll. The solo sneak-thief or ninja isn't an amazingly viable archetype unless you want to spend a LOT of points on being amazing at stealth/hacking/con...AND being at least an adept with Astral Perception. Honestly, even a full team will have a lot of trouble staying completely undetected with a top-tier zero zone security system... which is why you only give that kind of run to a top-notch team.