Um, seriously. It's there in black and white on p55: slaving requires a subscription. As we all know it should, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It literally could not be clearer.

Geez x.x kept missing that box. Still don't know why A couldn't be a slave to B even though they aren't connected, as it seems somewhat silly that as soon as B turns off or loses wireless, A suddenly decides to accept connections from anyone. So really there is a 4th method to getting into a slaved device, and that is to disrupt the connection between master and slave, via a jammer perhaps.

AFAIK, you can probably 'program' arbitrary conditions into a node (like an Access ID whitelist). Half of slaving is forwarding connections; between that and having admin control from the master, that explains the subscription.

In ideal-ville, the rules are supposed to be abstract, simplified, and balanced, compared to reality. If you want to make changes (reality-based or otherwise), do go for it.

Ghost, wouldn't you at least need to find the Access ID of the comm you want to slave? I follow you on saying you don't need an admin account to slave, that security will do just fine, but if there are say, 3 Access IDs that are slaved to one master commlink, I'd think you would either need to perform three actions to slave each of them to a different Access ID or take two actions to do one (that being an analyze to get the one Access ID and a second to reslave it).

Granted, I think by spoofing, you could simply get in the master commlink as a user account and then just start spoofing commands to the slaves, instead of worrying about getting some sort of real control over the hacker's comm.

Oh yes, if you want to change over multiple slaves, that is going to take multiple actions. And yes, you would need to find the slave you want to change ownership of. I've been operating under the assumption that you know the slave already, and are looking at how to get into it, as opposed to looking at the master and wanting to take its (unknown) slaves.

I think the only way you'd know the slave already is if you had its Access ID before it was actually slaved. Since any traffic directed at the slave goes straight to the master, I don't see how you could even do a Matrix Perception on a slave as its effectively invisible. Even if you knew its physical location, you couldn't get an Access ID wirelessly, right?

I'm just thinking that going into all of this, like in a combat or whatever, you won't know the Access ID of the slave, so you do have to get in the master first. That is kind of the point of slaving comms to the hacker for security. The slave turns invisible and the master has to be hacked first, which should be harder to do...

You could get the accessID with a EW+Sniff test to pick up the packets, and then a decrypt to decrypt the packets.

Sure you could, that is basically the purpose of the scan program. How else would you ever connect to anything?

Ghost, the way I am reading it is all traffic (which should include scanning) would be forwarded to the master to handle. So your scan on a slaved commlink would go to the master. Again, this is only for slaved commlinks, not anything in general. Slaving a commlink provides an extra level of protection.

sabs, that makes sense. You could pick up the packets. And if you did so before engaging in combat or other interaction, you'd have less actions to worry about. If not, well, you've got some extra steps to perform to get the Access ID, which may actually be quicker to get into the master comm and not putz around with the slaved commlink at all externally.

You could still get the access ID from scanning, just like you can still get it from scanning a hidden node.

Wouldn't the slave have to respond to the scan? That seems like a contradiction to forwarding all traffic and control to the master. I don't think a slaved node is the same thing as a hidden node. The way I read it, a slaved node, for all intents as purposes, turns into the master node, so that's the only node you are able to interact with wirelessly. Again, I thought security was the whole purpose of slaving, making you have to go through the master node (which is assumed to be better secured than any of the slaves) for everything.

I agree, I get the entire 'chokepoint' vibe from slaving devices. You have to go through the chokepoint to reach anything else. You can spoof commands to slaves, but only from the master node.

Of course, I have one read-through of the matrix stuff in SR4 under my belt, so I am still pretty much helplessly confused.

Yes, and you do have to go through the master node. I don't know how scanning works, but my guess is that it takes the wireless signal that a device puts out (even the slaved device puts out signals to the master to maintain the required subscription) and pulls the access ID from that. It's kinda like a specialized form of intercept traffic. At least that's how I think of it. However it works though, scanning makes no mention of the device being searched for needing to accept connections or anything of the like, and slaving makes no mention that it prevents the device being scanned.

You cannot spoof a Slave unless you have access to the Master Node. You cannot find an Access ID for a Slaved Node, because you do not detect the slaved Node, you detect the master. Etc...

Here is the quote for Slaving and accessing Slaved Nodes...



You only have three choices for deeling with a Slaved Node.

1. Hack it Physically through a WIRED CONECTION (Or through its own hardware)...
2. Hack the Master Node to gain control of it, and thus any Slaved Nodes.
3. Spoof the AID of the Master Node, and THEN Spoof commands to the Slave.

That is it... Nothing else will work.

I don't see how spoofing the access ID of the master node = "have access to the Master Node".
A Trace User test will provide the access ID. A Capture Wireless Signal Test will allow you to do a Trace User.

No one was disputing any of that, I don't see why you quoted it. Though actually, there is a 4th method. You can break the connection between master and slave (Via jamming for instance), which would cause the slave to no long be slaved, as being slaved requires an active subscription, and thus make it hackable via normal means at least until a connection is reestablished (after which it isn't stated if the slave/master relationship starts up again automatically or needs to be manually reinstated). Even so, I don't know why you quoted ways to break into a slave when we were talking about obtaining an Access ID which doesn't require a connection to the node in question, or a connection of any kind.

If you can spoof access to the Master node, then you can also spoof access to the Slaved Nodes, but it is a two step process. Don't try to relate it to anything in real life, that way lies madness... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No it wont, it will supply the AID of the MASTER NODE. Unless, of course, you are using the Slaved Node to communicate Wirelessly. Why exactly would you do that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You would do that because it is required in order to have a subscription with the master node which is required for the master/slave relationship.

And no, you spoof the access ID of the master node so that you can give commands to the slave. You don't 'spoof access to the master node'. You may be mixing up what spoof is/does. If you spoof the access ID of the master node, you are basically pretending to be the master node. You don't have to get any actual access to the master node, or indeed interact with the master node any more than is required to obtain its access ID.

But if both nodes are communicating wirelessly, aren't both their AIDs being sent through the air?
And if they are, can't you capture the wireless signal of both?
(Not being Socratic. Honestly asking.)

I am not mixing up my rules here. Read the Rules I quoted... and I quote, again...



Pretty evident there, don't you think?
Once you have SPOOFED the AID of the Master Node, You still have to SPOOF the commands to the Slave, uisng that Spoofed Master Node AID.

Why is that so difficult to understand. You are NOT the Master Node in that Case. You are pretending to be the Master Node, and then Pretending to Give appropriate commands to the Slaved Node.

Yeah, for spoofing, you just need to know the Access ID of the Master and the Node, then you can "pretend" and send all the commands you want. But, you do need to get both of those Access IDs to make it work, so its multiple steps again.

It is not so much that you need 2 AID's. It is that you need to convince the Slaved Node that you are indeed who you say you are, which is a Spoof Command. You only need the AID of the Master node.

Hmm, that's weird, I assumed that spoofing a command included making it look like it was coming from the correct access ID. Otherwise why wouldn't you spoof your access ID to look like the master and then just use normal commands instead of spoofs? I mean if you use spoof to look like the master, why do you also need to use spoof to make commands look like they came from the master? Hang on, let me read up on what exactly spoof does to get a clearer picture.

Yeah,
I think the problem here is that spoof is a term, as well as a program. You spoof the master as part of the action of sending a spoofed command. It only requires one action to do so (not counting actions required to obtain the access ID of the master in the first place).

The Problem is that you need to Spoof the Master Node for the Access to be able to send additional commands down the pipe. And, because you are NOT the Master Node, You need to Spoof any commands (using the Master' Node's AID) to the Slaved Node. It is often just easier to Hack the Master node and then you have access without needing to Spoof. But Spoofing does not usually carry the risk of actually hacking the Master Node (You are pretending to be a legitimate User from the "Outside" because you have a Valid AID).