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Ghost_in_the_Sys...
post Jun 9 2011, 03:39 AM
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Anyone know what the 'mind over matter' power is? It's mentioned as being one the speaker's way adept can get a discount on.
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Mäx
post Jun 9 2011, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 9 2011, 06:39 AM) *
Anyone know what the 'mind over matter' power is?

WAR page 178
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CanRay
post Jun 9 2011, 03:47 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 8 2011, 10:43 PM) *
WAR page 178

I'm sorry, what book again? I don't remember any book titled "War!". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Udoshi
post Jun 9 2011, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 7 2011, 09:03 AM) *
Yes, if you ONLY use the Way Discount, then yes, you need 8pp to get 2pp free. However, there are always other alternatives... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


As i mentioned earlier, when walking the ways was being mentioned, there's no restriction to walking more than one path at once.

How many powers have overlaps between the paths?
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Mäx
post Jun 9 2011, 03:50 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 9 2011, 06:47 AM) *
I'm sorry, what book again? I don't remember any book titled "War!". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Hey now, thats from the good 50 page part of the book.
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ggodo
post Jun 9 2011, 04:03 AM
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QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 7 2011, 08:16 AM) *
Well yes, but you saved 3.5 because of Way and geas. Only 1.75 of that was saved because of way.

And only one way has access to increased reflexes, and none have distance strike. Without that it really is difficult to get up to such huge base PP expenditures with so few powers.

I never said there wasn't a potential for munchkinism, but that can be said of just about anything, including the core rules. In general you're going to save maybe around 1 PP. You could save more if you're really careful, and you could save less.

And as Makki alluded to, some ways are perhaps easier to mess with than others. Warrior for example seems to include all the most expensive and scalable powers (Improved reflexes and combat sense just to name two).

So like basically everything for the game, you can take it as a cool flavor addition to the game and your character, or an opportunity to power game and squeeze every last DP out of your collection of numbers.


1.75 is about 2, that's pretty good I think.

In regard to Mind Over Matter, I see it causing the same problems Weapon Trickery does in d20. One stat shouldn't do two unrelated things equally well. That leads to some really ridiculous circumstances, imagine what it would do for a mystic adept shaman face melee fighter.

Well, maybe it isn't as bad as all charisma casters being melee powerhouses.
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Ghost_in_the_Sys...
post Jun 9 2011, 04:11 AM
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No, but I could see a problem with the hermetic equivalent with cerebral boosters. Throw in genetic optimization and the surge quality and just maybe exceptional attribute... that's 12 max logic which would equate to 12 max agility which is kind of scary.
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Mäx
post Jun 9 2011, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (ggodo @ Jun 9 2011, 07:03 AM) *
imagine what it would do for a mystic adept shaman face melee fighter.

Pretty much nothink, melee combat skills are linked to agility (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 9 2011, 07:11 AM) *
that's 12 max logic which would equate to 12 max agility which is kind of scary.

Not really considering that with those same tricks you can have a 15 max Agility.
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Ghost_in_the_Sys...
post Jun 9 2011, 04:18 AM
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Yes, but you wouldn't also have a 15 logic with which to do logical things and resist drain.

I have to admit, it does seem quite powerful as it is basically 1.5 PP for carte blanch to put leave a physical stat at 1 but still have it particularly high.
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ggodo
post Jun 9 2011, 04:24 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 8 2011, 09:13 PM) *
Pretty much nothink, melee combat skills are linked to agility (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Well, I was thinking base damage, but yeah. Weapon Trickery was a "Use Charisma to hit" feat somewhere in d20. I remember having to ban it after the Sorcerer became a one man army. I still have nightmares about it. What Ghost says is a bit scarier.
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Mäx
post Jun 9 2011, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE (ggodo @ Jun 9 2011, 07:24 AM) *
Well, I was thinking base damage, but yeah.

Mind over matter doesn't help with that at all, as it's not a test.
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Ghost_in_the_Sys...
post Jun 9 2011, 04:36 AM
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Ooo, interesting. That makes the strength replacement even more useless because there is all of... 1 test that uses strength and it is never used? Body isn't all that useful either because you'll have decent body soak but you'll have sucky armor. Reaction is mixed bag because you'll have low init but high defenses. Looks like once again agility gets all the love.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 04:41 AM
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Not to derail, but I hardly see how a couple extra To-Hit points makes a sorcerer an army (as if he wasn't already, of course). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In any case, remember the rule: War! sucks.
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ggodo
post Jun 9 2011, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 8 2011, 08:33 PM) *
Mind over matter doesn't help with that at all, as it's not a test.

And this is what I get for commenting whilest sleepy.
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Critias
post Jun 9 2011, 03:30 PM
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Don't have a ton of time to comment, I'm in the middle of a study abroad trip at the moment, just have a bit of free time and thought I'd check my email and a few forums and whatnot. So I'm just gonna toss this up instead of replying individually. No offense to anyone! I'm not ignoring, I'm just mass-replying.

I appreciate the comments (both positive and critical), and all in all the fans have reacted favorably to Way of the Adept which makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. I had to make a few compromises and adjust a few things along the way that ended up changing how efficient the discounts were (based on playtest feedback), but I was still happy with the end result and most fans have been, too. The playtest issues raised were that in my early drafts Ways didn't cost anything, and that they were too broad (as I just initially allowed people to pick their own powers, subject to GM approval, based upon each individual character's interpretation of the Way they were walking). Alterations were made to (a) make Ways cost something, and (b) have "built in" limitations placed on which Ways discounted which powers -- so parts of the final product don't necessarily line up with my earliest visions, but if I didn't still think it was a cool little book I wouldn't have signed off on it as bein' finished.

So for the folks that dig it and think it adds a little crunch to go with the fluff of Ways, cool! I'm glad you're enjoying it, and hope it gives you a little extra magical "oomph" to stick it to those sammies and their stupid grades of 'ware and biocompatability and packages and junk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In case it's not immediately obvious when one reads most of my fiction prior to signing on as a freelancer, or those that just flipped through Way of the Adept, I'm a fan of the character type, and I'm thrilled for the other fans that are liking the book.

For the folks that wish it offered a bit more of a discount, or that are more concerned with the math/efficiency...cool! I kind of agree with ya, but we write what we can write, we listen to playtesters and line developers and as many other people as we can along the writing process, and that's that. I told a fun little story, had a good time writing up some Shadowtalk, tried to level the playing field in a few places with Way-specific powers, picked out some of my favorite artwork from 20+ years of Shadowrun gaming, and tried to cut adepts a little slack. I'm sorry if you didn't like how things fell out in the end, but I hope you still feel you got your $5 worth. Since it's all optional rules anyways, if you really think adepts are still getting the short end of the stick in Way of the Adept, chat with your GM or something and tweak the costs however you think they need to be tweaked. It's your game, not ours.
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Mäx
post Jun 9 2011, 03:38 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 9 2011, 07:41 AM) *
In any case, remember the rule: War! sucks.

Nah, WAR first 126 pages mostly suck, the last 50 contain a lot of nice additions to the game, ofcource there are few bad eggs there too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Irion
post Jun 10 2011, 06:38 AM
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QUOTE
Nah, WAR first 126 pages mostly suck, the last 50 contain a lot of nice additions to the game, ofcource there are few bad eggs there too

There are maybe one or two good rules there. Most of the gear is just overpowered crap. Of course you may have rifles, which are superior to any other rifle.
Monofilament granade darn it. And so on and so on.
There are some good rules, like the degradation rule, which took care of I write my on raiting 10 Programms with a lot of options on them.

Well, and the arial chase rules might sometimes be interesting leading a smuggle run.
The technomancer Echo is bugged, because you do not know the raiting but therefor the range is much higher than the cyberware. Sucks.




But back to
QUOTE
mind over matter.

As I first glanced on it I though: WTF.
Yes, it may be abused by social adepts, but hell.
It does not work on reaction, since you get bonus dice for reaction for any kind of passiv initiative improvement. (Well, exept the increased reflexes spell)
It does not work so well on agility since agility augmentations are dirt cheap.
So strength is the only really usefull attribute and maybe body. (But since you are just using it for test (still no armor or additional boxes) it is not that good after all)
And strength would not get you any bonus damage.
So yeah it burns down to agility. Well, it aint't that great.
(Exept of course a hermetic mage could be taking it as a metamagic, which he can't. Wasting two points of magic and the whole astral cake does not seem worth it. Get some muscle toner and be happy, since magic lost through essence is easy bought back)

Back to topic:
First: Mind over matter seems horrible broken on the first glance but it ain't that bad. Even with way of the adept.

Critics to way of the adept:
QUOTE
and purchase those following powers
at a 25 percent discount (rounding as normal), selecting one power
for every two Magic points.

VERY BAD RULING. You may choose increased reflexes or increase skill. The amount of points saved all around the book.
Still it is not saying if I am able to pick increased Reflex 3 and it counts as one power.
Better ruling would be like
QUOTE
and purchase those following powers at a 25 percent discount(rounding as normal), selecting powers worth one power point(before applying any kind of cost modifications) for every two Magic points


Well, this rules sucks too:
QUOTE
If you later want to increase Intuition
using Karma, the cost is based on the total attribute, including the
magical improvements.

But it is from Street magic, so it would be barkin at the wrong tree.

I like the special powers for the different ways. (By the way in the first one is (I guess) a typing error. The max level is missing. Since every other power has one...
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ggodo
post Jun 10 2011, 02:04 PM
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I thought the "one power per two points" thing was very clear. Every two points of magic you get you get to pick anther power. since Increased reflexes is a power no matter what rating it is, you can use your discount power on any level of increased reflexes you want. If you have six magic then you can still pick two more discounts, and if you have four magic then you'll still have another, no matter what rating you picked.

If you're arguing from a perspective of balance, I can't speak to that as no one's ever made an adept in my games.
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Makki
post Jun 10 2011, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (ggodo @ Jun 10 2011, 10:04 AM) *
I thought the "one power per two points" thing was very clear. Every two points of magic you get you get to pick anther power. since Increased reflexes is a power no matter what rating it is, you can use your discount power on any level of increased reflexes you want. If you have six magic then you can still pick two more discounts, and if you have four magic then you'll still have another, no matter what rating you picked.

If you're arguing from a perspective of balance, I can't speak to that as no one's ever made an adept in my games.


The thing Irion caught very well and where he's right is, only two classes have access to a reduced Improved Reflexes and therefore a high absolute discount, while the percentage is the same for all ofc. All other ways don't really get a good absolute discount.
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Irion
post Jun 10 2011, 02:11 PM
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@ggodo
Well, both.
First of all: It is not obvious if increased reflexes 3 would count as 1 or as 3 Powers. (There were discussion about stuff here, which even I thought were obvious)
(But granted it is a minor point for sure)

As for balance: You do not need an adpet to judge that just ask yourself: Is it fair that person A gets 1 Powerpoint discount, while person B only gets 0.125 Powerpoint discount.
I guess thats not hard to judge.

@Makki
As a matter of fact I just found the Warrior to have access. But thats not a bid deal since they get a good set of powers anyway.
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Ghost_in_the_Sys...
post Jun 10 2011, 02:14 PM
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It's quite powerful because most of the powers that other ways can select are between .25 and 1 PP in total cost with an occasional one going up to 1.5

The warrior way however has a huge concentration of all the most expensive powers including improved reflexes, combat sense, and Improved Ability (Combat skills).
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Irion
post Jun 10 2011, 02:17 PM
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Yes, for the warrior it means cutting all his cost by 25%. Compared to the Speaker where it is only about 50% or even less.
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Mäx
post Jun 10 2011, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 10 2011, 09:38 AM) *
There are maybe one or two good rules there.

IMHO there are lots of good stuff in there:
Leadership rules, composure rules, suppressive fire rules, new grunts and contacts, Ares Bravo/Sierra assault rifles, the nice addition of battle rifles(except HVBAR) and Mines,Cluster and Gecko Grenades, Millspec commlinks and software, Wingsuit, both of the new ware's(should have had more ware in there, but i take what i can get), combat aircrafts that can actually perform their intended function, more vehicle weapons, new adept power and propaply few other think that don't come to mind right now.
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Tyro
post Jun 10 2011, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 9 2011, 10:38 PM) *
dices

*wince*
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Irion
post Jun 10 2011, 07:33 PM
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Thanks, and fixed that for you. Sorry about that. Typing faster than thinking.
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