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Mäx
post Jun 9 2011, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Jun 9 2011, 06:55 PM) *
I also find it hard to believe you are going to squeeze all that ware out of even 400K cash.

Actually quite doable , when you don't have to worry about essence.
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sabs
post Jun 9 2011, 04:25 PM
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second hand cyber is awesome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) really.
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Mäx
post Jun 9 2011, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 9 2011, 07:25 PM) *
second hand cyber is awesome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) really.

Oh it so is, i was gonna say that ware line-up is doaple with less then 200K and then i remembered the sad fact that you can't get cultured bioware as used (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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KCKitsune
post Jun 9 2011, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 9 2011, 11:07 AM) *
Why would you waste cold hard essence and money on cybereyes and ears. Those don't get you anything that contacts+glasses and earbuds can't. Except that arguably they can't be taken away from you if you get captured. But really, if you're captured, anything can be taken away from you.

You can't cast magic though contacts/glasses. It's also nice to know that you have a displaylink and a camera without anyone being the wiser.
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sabs
post Jun 9 2011, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jun 9 2011, 07:01 PM) *
You can't cast magic though contacts/glasses. It's also nice to know that you have a displaylink and a camera without anyone being the wiser.


That character was clearly not a Mage. I can see the argument for a Mage.

Displaylink is easy enough to accomplish with contacts. It's also doable with DNI.
As for Camera, you have several options. Your commlink comes with a camera, you can have an attachable sensor package that has a camera, or Imagelink on your glasses gives you effectively a camera.

So none of those are real serious reasons.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2011, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 9 2011, 12:14 PM) *
That character was clearly not a Mage. I can see the argument for a Mage.

Displaylink is easy enough to accomplish with contacts. It's also doable with DNI.
As for Camera, you have several options. Your commlink comes with a camera, you can have an attachable sensor package that has a camera, or Imagelink on your glasses gives you effectively a camera.

So none of those are real serious reasons.

Imagelink Does NOT give you a camera... It allows display services only, not recording services... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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sabs
post Jun 9 2011, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 9 2011, 07:40 PM) *
Imagelink Does NOT give you a camera... It allows display services only, not recording services... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


That's not really possible, because it has to be able to display things in the right position where you are looking. It displays medusa hair, or ARO enhanced clothing of people you are looking at.

ANd all you need for that is a commlink and imagelink.
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Dakka Dakka
post Jun 9 2011, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 9 2011, 08:58 PM) *
That's not really possible, because it has to be able to display things in the right position where you are looking. It displays medusa hair, or ARO enhanced clothing of people you are looking at.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein is right, an imagelink indeed is only capable of making data visible to the user. this data can be the videofeed of a camera. The camera is not included. In Cybereyes it can display the data from the cybereye camera, as a cybereye is a camera with a DNI so that your brain can process the video data. Glasses or other optical devices it can only display data from a camera as well. unless the device has a camera installed you need an externeal one. I don't know what you want to say with medusa hair. Displaying the AROs in the correct location is not done by a camera.
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sabs
post Jun 9 2011, 07:20 PM
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You can't display the AROS in the correct location unless you can tell where the correct location is. To do that, you need video input for the commlink.
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Vuron
post Jun 9 2011, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 9 2011, 01:58 PM) *
That's not really possible, because it has to be able to display things in the right position where you are looking. It displays medusa hair, or ARO enhanced clothing of people you are looking at.

ANd all you need for that is a commlink and imagelink.


Still doesn't mean that a camera has to be involved.

Think of it this way, your commlink is creating a map of various AR items based upon spatial data given to it from various external sources. Some of that data would be omni-directional broadcast but some of it will be overlays of specific objects or items.

The goggles, image-link, etc are just displaying that AR data in the right spatial location in regards to other fixed and moving points. All that you need to maintain relative positioning would be some sort of pointing device that indicates the relative position of the head or eyes.

That doesn't need to be a camera indeed a camera would be a bad mechanism (too much extraneous data) but could be done with a variety of low bandwidth mechanisms. Basically you just need to tell the commlink that my head is in a specific orientation and my eyes are focused on item X.

If you've some of Gibson's more recent stuff, he kinda covers a primitive version of AR style overlays with the locative art in Spook Country.

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suoq
post Jun 9 2011, 08:31 PM
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This may be one of my new favorite Shadowrun examples.

It's fascinating to realize that cameras can capture video (SR4A 332), cybereyes have eye recording units to capture video (SR4A 340) and you can implant an Eye Recording Unit (SR4A 340) to record video but goggles, glasses, contacts, monocles, binoculars, scopes are all unable to record video, even with the help of a commlink, despite all of them having video input, video output, processor, memory, and signal.

I think, technically, smartguns can record video through the installed camera, but that's it's own can of worms.
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sabs
post Jun 9 2011, 08:42 PM
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that has always struck me as weird Suoq, and I always play that Glasses, goggles, and the like have vido input.

The thing is, if Contacts can have Vision Magnification, and Vision Enhancement, (which are camera upgrades) how can they not capture video?
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 08:47 PM
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I assumed that everyone played that all the imaging sensors capture video. Cuz anything else would be willingly dumb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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KCKitsune
post Jun 9 2011, 08:49 PM
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I think that people would still get cybereyes/ears because of the built in capabilities. I mean, even if you only get rating 1 for flare comp and smartlink you can get a cyber safety so nobody can take and use your guns against you:

QUOTE
If the character also possesses a cyberware smartlink system, the safety links to it and the direct contact overrides any wireless smartlink input, essentially making the smartlink immune from hacking.


QUOTE ( @ Jun 9 2011, 04:31 PM) *
I think, technically, smartguns can record video through the installed camera, but that's it's own can of worms.

This is true. Here is something everyone: If you have smartlink contacts what do they do? I mean they can't have THAT much computing power. They take up 3 capacity in an eye, but only take up on slot in contacts.

I would like it if the following was possible: If you have a smartgun, ImageLink, and a commlink with DNI, then you can run a program on the Commlink to act like the Smartlink cyberware system.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2011, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Jun 9 2011, 02:31 PM) *
This may be one of my new favorite Shadowrun examples.

It's fascinating to realize that cameras can capture video (SR4A 332), cybereyes have eye recording units to capture video (SR4A 340) and you can implant an Eye Recording Unit (SR4A 340) to record video but goggles, glasses, contacts, monocles, binoculars, scopes are all unable to record video, even with the help of a commlink, despite all of them having video input, video output, processor, memory, and signal.

I think, technically, smartguns can record video through the installed camera, but that's it's own can of worms.


An Imagelink is not a Camera... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I am pretty sure that you can put a Camera in A Pair of Binoculars, a Monoular, and a Scope, as these can all be Handheld Sensor Units. As for Glasses or Contacts... NO. Goggles, I can see, as they too can be designed as a Sensor Unit. Had a set of Goggle based Sensors in the Gulf War, in Fact, that were just that. But they were not goggles.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2011, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 9 2011, 02:47 PM) *
I assumed that everyone played that all the imaging sensors capture video. Cuz anything else would be willingly dumb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Why?
Is a Scope a Camera? Not Inherently...
Is a Microscope a Camera? Not Inherently...
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2011, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 9 2011, 02:42 PM) *
that has always struck me as weird Suoq, and I always play that Glasses, goggles, and the like have vido input.

The thing is, if Contacts can have Vision Magnification, and Vision Enhancement, (which are camera upgrades) how can they not capture video?


They are not only Camera Upgrades though. They are also Vision Upgrades. You do not need a camera for either of them...
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Irion
post Jun 9 2011, 09:00 PM
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@sabs
You are right, it was my mistake. Sometimes there is this non powergamer in me who thinks a samurai should have those.
He will be taken care of... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)


@Brainpiercing7.62mm
I do not think the fall behind directly after chargen, but later on.
In Chargen they have all of ther 6 points of essence to throw arround, while an awakend character has to pay for every point dearly(unless you allow initiation and the workaround of getting ware before taking the qulity or ware/magic/ware/magic etc.

QUOTE
He doesn't need to upgrade his ware, because he only got the most necessary things. He can spend everything on better gear and training, and put his karma into magic and skills, and initiation.

Right, lets make this list of stuff you should get through ware.
Agility bonus 3 or 4 through muscle toner (0.6 to 0.8 Essence), Platelet Factories(0.2), Cyberhand with nanohive(lower arm has a better essence to capacity raiting so 0.45)
This is the as less as possible. And even that goes over 1 point of Essence. (If you are not playing with way of the adept you have to get some room for the synaptic booster too.)
Of course you might play a character with only 1 point of ware and have fun, but this won't be better than a mundane soon. (Yes, after 600 Karma with the rule of take an adept power point for each initiation if you like)

QUOTE
The main way to fix this is creating cash/karma transparency via a karma buying/selling system.

I guess this would be a possibility. The other would be to enable mundanes to spend their Karma so it is usefull.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 09:04 PM
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In SR, they are both inherently cameras, yes. Electronics are tiny, cheap, and ubiquitous enough that they'd have to be deliberately crippled not to record.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2011, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 9 2011, 03:04 PM) *
In SR, they are both inherently cameras, yes. Electronics are tiny, cheap, and ubiquitous enough that they'd have to be deliberately crippled not to record.


Or, you know, just do not pay the extra Nuyen for the Camera itself... Gee, No one would think about that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And no, they are not inherently cameras... Here, Let me show you...

QUOTE
From hip sunglasses to protective goggles to chic monocles, basic vision enhancers come in several common forms. All such devices have wireless capability, though they may also be directly wired via fiberoptic cable (except contacts). The ratings of vision sensors and imaging devices equals the number of vision enhancements that can be applied to the device.


Glasses, Goggles, Contacts, etc are Sensor Devices which can take a Vision Enhancement... A Camera is not a Vision Enhancement (it is a Sensor or Imaging Device)... Thus you cannot put a camera into Glasses, Goggles or Contacts.

If you want a Sensor Device that incorporates a Camera, and you want to wear it, you must purchase a Sensor that will work for such things. Handheld Sensors work well for that Distinction (even if you can wear it)...
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suoq
post Jun 9 2011, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 9 2011, 03:11 PM) *
If you want a Sensor Device that incorporates a Camera, and you want to wear it, you must purchase a Sensor that will work for such things. Handheld Sensors work well for that Distinction
However, if we do as you suggest ("you can put a Camera in A Pair of Binoculars, a Monoular, and a Scope"), the recording from that Camera will only record the things seen with that camera's vision enhancements. If we go so far as to allow you to claim goggles are a handheld sensor and can therefore have additional sensors put in them (and personally, I'm not willing to go that far) AND the goggles have vision magnification, the recording will NOT have the benefit of vision magnification UNLESS you also install that vision enhancement in the camera. In short, if you want the camera to record what the device sees you have to purchase the enhancements twice.

Illogical as heck, but as I've already been accused today of trying to apply logic to the rules, that seems to be what the rules are saying.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 09:43 PM
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Worse, if you claim that you can add a camera to glasses, that means you can get a bunch of extra enhancements in the camera's capacity. It's just easier to assume that it's the future, everything can record. The easiest thing is, of course, to assume that you're wearing trodes (in their incarnation as simrig), and you can 'record' literally every sense you experience (as well as pipe any sensory input straight into the brain).
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KCKitsune
post Jun 9 2011, 09:48 PM
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Irion, if that adept goes with Alpha grade Muscle Toner 3, Standard Grade Platelet Factory and lower arm (though leg is the better deal, 2 more capacity for the same price, as compared to the lower arm) and he still has 5.095 Essence left over.
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suoq
post Jun 9 2011, 09:51 PM
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Agreed. If you're adding the camera to glasses the camera can actually have more capacity than the glasses could. If you're adding them to the goggles, the sensor channels of the goggles can be effectively tripled (assuming TJ counts the goggles as one of the three capacity in the handheld device).

Bwahaha - Just found this on SR4A pg 219
QUOTE
You can also experience AR through audible cues, transferred and heard via an audio link (p. 333) which can be in cyberears,
earbud headphones, subdermal bone-vibrating speakers, or even goggles or glasses that send tight-beam audio to your ears.
Not sure if audio from glasses/goggles comes with them or is some mod I haven't found yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm not sure how (by RAW) you can record with trodes. It makes logical sense that a commlink or something does the recording, but again, that's a rule I can't find.
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Irion
post Jun 9 2011, 09:52 PM
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@KCKitsune
Depends on. A nasty GM might have an issu with footware.
Anyay. Still any further essence loss would cost you one point of magic. Better to get a little extra if something bad happens.
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