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> Gun Heaven out now--details on 32 guns, some new, some classics., Because "too many guns" is a phrase without meaning to us
Patrick Goodman
post Jun 13 2011, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 12 2011, 06:34 PM) *
Much of my current problems with their product seem to stem from the drive to publish fast, much and often to turn a quick buck, resulting in several products being released that just could use more polishing.

Believe it or not, Hermit, but we're largely on the same side here. I don't make the schedule, so I'm rather limited on what I can do. I may or may not be limiting my ability to do more by having this conversation in the first place, but that's a chance I'm willing to take.
QUOTE
Yeah, I know, that's nagging again, and totally not positive ... but you know what? I wouldn't die if Gun Heaven had spent a few more weeks in the proofing and editing stage, because that'd mean most of the problems I have with it might have been caught.

I do what I can in the time I'm given. It's all I can do.

I'm not saying you have to like it that a less-than-stellar product made it out, and I know you're not blaming me for things. I'm likewise not saying that anyone has to bow and scrape before me, or anything like that. I'm not in this for glory, I'm in this because I love the game and am trying to keep it the game I love. Basically, I'm trying to say that there's no hard feelings on my part; I shouldn't take it personally, despite the amount of time I've got invested in this game in general, and this particular product in general.

I like professional credits I can slap on my CV, but I was thinking I was going to have them take my name off this one at the beginning of the process. If it hadn't been vastly improved by release time, I would have had my name taken off. I take my reputation...in this industry, in this forum, in this game...very seriously. You see my name on something, good or bad, I just want you to know that I fought for that product. I fought for this one. I'm not saying that you have to like it, but a lot of you have known me for a lot of years, and you should know the kind of shit I've dealt with as a writer for this game.

I might let you down here and there, but I'm not doing it without a fight.
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 13 2011, 03:57 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 12 2011, 10:52 PM) *
What actually IS going on with that battle? If, you know, you're allowed/able/willing to say.

Don't have a lot to show for it right this second, but the need for errata is something that is known. Soon as I have something more positive, I'll let you guys know.
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MYST1C
post Jun 13 2011, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 12 2011, 07:50 PM) *
What the frack are you talking about, seriously could we maybe get a clarification to this.
MP 7 is a Vintage gun from this new realase and Urban Combat is from Arsenal, only think same about them is that their both SMG:s.

It's a problem with fiction-vs-reality.
The Urban Combat's full name – as stated in the book it was introduced in, 1992's Deutschland in den Schatten – is Heckler & Koch MP7z "Urban Combat".
How should they've known that 10 years later HK would actually produce an Uzi-style SMG then adopted by German military as "MP7"? Of course, the real-world MP7 neither has an integral silencer nor is it built from scanner-defeating ceramics...

A somewhat related problem arose when SR3's Cannon Companion was published in Germany: This book presented a "Steyr TMP" as a machine pistol – unfortunately, an earlier German SR2 sourcebook set in Austria had already contained a Steyr TMP as an SMG...
(IRL Steyr doesn't even manufacture the TMP anymore – blueprints and manufacturing rights were sold to Swiss company Brüger & Thomet which now sells this gun as "B&T MP9".)
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MYST1C
post Jun 13 2011, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 13 2011, 03:11 AM) *
Not sure about the german stuff. German editions have a history of adding and changing things for the hell of it.

In the past, yes. With SR4 and Pegasus as the German licensee emphasis is put on trans-atlantic compatibility. All changes and additions (or omissions) made in German books are communicated to and approved by CGL!

That's why it's so hard to grasp just why CGL doesn't publish the errata they have – after all it's them who give these errata to Pegasus for inclusion in our translations...
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hermit
post Jun 13 2011, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE
The Urban Combat's full name – as stated in the book it was introduced in, 1992's Deutschland in den Schatten – is Heckler & Koch MP7z "Urban Combat".
How should they've known that 10 years later HK would actually produce an Uzi-style SMG then adopted by German military as "MP7"? Of course, the real-world MP7 neither has an integral silencer nor is it built from scanner-defeating ceramics...

And uses the same name. And is mentioned in an American release ... but admittedly, a bunch of lists of this stuff would probably help research. Well, they're in German (mostly), and I'm not going to translate them, but fwiw, here're my flufflists. Semi-complete and almost completely sourced. It includes stuff from nearly all SR publications to date, including German- and French-only sources, and novels, again including german-specific novels.

QUOTE
Don't have a lot to show for it right this second, but the need for errata is something that is known. Soon as I have something more positive, I'll let you guys know.

Releasing Errata would in my opinion go a long way to restore trust in CGL's dedication to the line (other than to make a buck to rid themselves of their debts). So I hope this is a fight you'll win.

QUOTE
Believe it or not, Hermit, but we're largely on the same side here. I don't make the schedule, so I'm rather limited on what I can do. I may or may not be limiting my ability to do more by having this conversation in the first place, but that's a chance I'm willing to take.

I don't doubt that, and from what you wrote here, I'm afraid the original file was about as bad as War's gear section, so I guess you mademuch of a difference already. The pdf isn't totally worthless or anything, it just could have needed a round of polishing and some research, like into the MP7 / Urban Combat matter.

BTW, were those replicas really bought for the PDF?
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Fatum
post Jun 13 2011, 02:25 PM
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AK-112 features a "retreating stage of the Euro-Wars" in its description. I yearn for more info on that "retreating stage", minding that the Euro-War was stopped abruptly after the Nightwraith strike, the fronts having grind to a stalemate.
Or is it the second Euro-War they mean? I can hardly remember any AK-armed forces retreating, as well, minding that the Red Army stopped the Jihad at Caucasus...
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CanRay
post Jun 13 2011, 03:35 PM
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More than (Soviet/Non-Soviet) Russia used the Kalashnikov. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) And even if the fronts ground to a stalemate, there would still be some areas that were contested and fought over, by the Politicos if by no one else. Border Skirmishes and the like were probably very common and might be what is being refereed to.

Also, another thing I like about the book is the fact that they're admitting there are different calibers. I just wish I knew what modern ones were used in the 6th world. But, again, that's me. Some of the members of my group think that a "Nine" is an actual type of pistol. (As in a make and model.).
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hobgoblin
post Jun 13 2011, 03:57 PM
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Oh can it about the calibers already!
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CanRay
post Jun 13 2011, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 13 2011, 10:57 AM) *
Oh can it about the calibers already!
Hey, it was a major part of the AK-112 and someone else brought that up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Logistics of situations is something that rears it's ugly head in my mind quite often, actually, and I've been having a major problem of a time ensuring that all my emergency supplies use the same battery types. (For the times I'm too tired to use the Crank-Power Generator.).
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hermit
post Jun 13 2011, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE
I just wish I knew what modern ones were used in the 6th world.

.40 s&w, 6mm Gyrojet Plus, 9mm 8AA caseless, 10 x 30 mm Full Metal Jacket Hi-Ex, 10 mm DPU caseless, 40mm HE Ammunition, 9 x 19 mm, 30 mm, 9mm Hollowpoint, 5,56 mm

Those are about what was mentioned in canon to this day. Having little idea of actual weapons and caliber, I trust you can make more of this than I do.
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CanRay
post Jun 13 2011, 04:38 PM
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.40 S&W is a variant of 10mm Automatic that Smith & Wesson put out to try and bridge the gap between the 9mm Parabellum and the .45 ACP (Range and recoil versus brute man stopping power.).

6mm Gyrojet is a rocket bullet. They had these IRL in the... 1960s I think. A lot larger caliber IRL, and was part of the cause that made legalizing rounds to only be a half-inch and no more.

9mm 8AA Caseless sounds like a type of caseless ammo, with 8AA meaning either the type of warhead or the shape and type of charge.

10 X 30mm Full Metal Jacket Hi-Ex sounds like a really powerful assault rifle or medium machine gun ammo. Maybe even a "Light" heavy machine gun.

10mm DPU caseless is 10mm Caseless (The Ares Predator caliber, as shows in SR4 BBB's image), with a Depleated Uranium Warhead.

40mm HE Ammunition is likely 40mm Launched Grenades, or a 40mm Light Cannon Round (IE: Panther Assault Cannon.).

9X19mm is one of the names for 9mm Parabellum (AKA: Luger), which is the most common pistol caliber found IRL in the Western World.

30mm might be a launched grenade or another light cannon round (IE: Panther Assault Cannon again.). The CIWS round, perhaps?

9mm Hollowpoint could be any of the various 9mm calibers out there, with a hollowpoint warhead (Bullet.).

5.56mm is likely 5.56mm NATO, the standard light rifle caliber of the Western World, and starting to gain common usage in hunting as well. (IIRC, A civilian version is out called the .223, which is the same style, but uses a lighter charge and cheaper brass.).

And it's likely well before this point that Hermit has gone, "Is he done yet? Can he shut up? Please?"
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James McMurray
post Jun 13 2011, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 13 2011, 11:38 AM) *
And it's likely well before this point that Hermit has gone, "Is he done yet? Can he shut up? Please?"


Not just hermit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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X-Kalibur
post Jun 13 2011, 05:24 PM
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Actually, Patrick, I'd like to give you some credit.

"the weapon was a favorite in
the ancient films of the late 1900s"

That is actually correct and does not need to be changed to 1990s. Besides, it was produced in 1970, I'm sure there were some movies in the 80s that featured them as well.
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EKBT81
post Jun 13 2011, 05:54 PM
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FWIW, to me the MAC-10 always seemed more of an 80's action movie weapon. Hence the Ingram Smartgun in SR1. The earliest movie featuring the MAC-10 that I'm aware of is McQ (1974).
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hobgoblin
post Jun 13 2011, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 13 2011, 06:04 PM) *
Hey, it was a major part of the AK-112 and someone else brought that up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

What, the Picador quote? And i thought the Apple faithful was nuts...
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X-Kalibur
post Jun 13 2011, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE (EKBT81 @ Jun 13 2011, 09:54 AM) *
FWIW, to me the MAC-10 always seemed more of an 80's action movie weapon. Hence the Ingram Smartgun in SR1. The earliest movie featuring the MAC-10 that I'm aware of is McQ (1974).


The ingram is an SMG, however, that stylistically resembles a cross between the MAC and the Uzi.
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Vuron
post Jun 13 2011, 06:00 PM
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Is it just me or did the vintage guns actually look cooler than the high-tech additions. Most of the sci-fi weapons seemed not very ergonomic, not very pretty and had odd shapes and pointy bits.

For a gun porn book having ugly guns just seems wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyway I'm not sure that game system is granular enough to really get into calibers in terms of damage and ranges. I mean if the differentiation between SMGs and Assault Rifles is 1P, -1 AP and different range bands I'm not sure that there is a ton of room to differentiate various assault rifles based upon whether they use 5.56mm or 6.8mm or 7.62mm.


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hermit
post Jun 13 2011, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE
And it's likely well before this point that Hermit has gone, "Is he done yet? Can he shut up? Please?"

No, it's actually quite interesting (depleted uranium, oh my! I guess this is anti-vehicleammo?). Those figures don't tell me much aside from "30mm must be some big gun. I checked, it's indeed a big gun, the Altmayr SP, a shotgun that supposedly can alo fire microgrenades (yes, wtf).

Most calibers are, I think, from art. I also have a number of ammo types that are just described as "SABOT ammo - high energy flechette ammunition" or something like that, but those have no caliber, going by Shadowrun's assumption of Duke Nukem physics.
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EKBT81
post Jun 13 2011, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jun 13 2011, 07:58 PM) *
The ingram is an SMG, however, that stylistically resembles a cross between the MAC and the Uzi.


I'm not sure about that. The Ingram Smartgun picture I'mfamiliar with is almost the same as a MAC-10 with a silencer/barrel shroud, except for the thingy added in front of the trigger guard (the smartlink?) and the charging knob having that weird extension down the side of the receiver.


QUOTE (Vuron @ Jun 13 2011, 08:00 PM) *
Is it just me or did the vintage guns actually look cooler than the high-tech additions. Most of the sci-fi weapons seemed not very ergonomic, not very pretty and had odd shapes and pointy bits.

For a gun porn book having ugly guns just seems wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyway I'm not sure that game system is granular enough to really get into calibers in terms of damage and ranges. I mean if the differentiation between SMGs and Assault Rifles is 1P, -1 AP and different range bands I'm not sure that there is a ton of room to differentiate various assault rifles based upon whether they use 5.56mm or 6.8mm or 7.62mm.


Well, that's probably because the vintage guns are actual guns, not fancy futuristic illustrations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I guess most RPG illustrators aren't firearms engineers or gunsmiths. So a picture of a real firearm or one based on a real firearm will almost always look more gun-like.
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Fatum
post Jun 13 2011, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 13 2011, 07:35 PM) *
More than (Soviet/Non-Soviet) Russia used the Kalashnikov. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Ok, who of those did the retreating?

QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 13 2011, 07:35 PM) *
And even if the fronts ground to a stalemate, there would still be some areas that were contested and fought over, by the Politicos if by no one else. Border Skirmishes and the like were probably very common and might be what is being refereed to.
Yeah, border skirmishes is one thing, retreating is another altogether.

QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 13 2011, 07:35 PM) *
Also, another thing I like about the book is the fact that they're admitting there are different calibers. I just wish I knew what modern ones were used in the 6th world. But, again, that's me. Some of the members of my group think that a "Nine" is an actual type of pistol. (As in a make and model.).
Next thing they say is not all assault rifle rounds are interchangeable. :\
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redwulf25
post Jun 13 2011, 06:20 PM
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According to the Bloodhawk's fluff a large individual can use it as an improvised weapon. Since that's called out as a design feature, shouldn't it have melee hardening? Otherwise it's not saying much of anything at all, any gun can be used as an improvised weapon to pistol whip someone it's just the ones with melee hardening don't get damaged or accidentally go off when you do.

Also, the Ultimax 150 could have used information on the Kyoto Upgrade package mentioned by Picador. Looks like there was plenty of room left on that page right across from the info on the standard comlink.
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CanRay
post Jun 13 2011, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 13 2011, 12:57 PM) *
What, the Picador quote? And i thought the Apple faithful was nuts...
Actually you brought up the AK-112, and thus I went off on my usual rant. You only have yourself to blame. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jun 13 2011, 01:10 PM) *
Next thing they say is not all assault rifle rounds are interchangeable. :\

Actually, they do think that. And, for once, are right. But that's only because of the "Common" knowledge of the M-16 and the AK-47, and the major differences between them. One major thing being the difference in the round they use (5.56mm NATO versus 7.62mm Soviet.).

I have, however, had to educate them on a few other points, such as not all magazines working with other rifles. STANAG 4179 helped with that with NATO (And there are adapters and modifications for those that aren't), and the Soviets did it just by having a really good Assault Rifle that everyone and their dog copied. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

After the Megas got into play, however, I see both of those items falling by the wayside damned quick, along with a return of "Everyone having their own ammunition variety" that happened pre-NATO/Warsaw Pact. Also, I'm not entirely sure that the AK-117 and the M22/23 magazines are compatible, despite using the same caliber.

There were some weird and wonderful ammunition back in the day, when half the world was Metric and the other half was Imperial, unlike today where there's only backwards and uneducated holdouts that use the Imperial system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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CanRay
post Jun 13 2011, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 13 2011, 11:56 AM) *
Not just hermit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Nice to feel the love on the forums. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 13 2011, 01:04 PM) *
No, it's actually quite interesting (depleted uranium, oh my! I guess this is anti-vehicleammo?). Those figures don't tell me much aside from "30mm must be some big gun. I checked, it's indeed a big gun, the Altmayr SP, a shotgun that supposedly can alo fire microgrenades (yes, wtf).
Wow, someone actually interested in my ranting/educating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (I think the A-10 "Warthog"'s main gun is 30mm as well.).

Depleted Uranium Tipped Rounds are Armour Defeating Ammunition ("Armour-Piercing", in other words) that can almost do the "Hollywood Armour Piercing" that gun nuts like myself leave shaking our heads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It's used in tank rounds, where they're nicknamed "The Silver Bullet". I'm not entirely sure, but it might be used in smaller calibers as well. (As most of the forces that use these rounds face opponents that don't use body armour as standard issue, that might not be as likely. But, as I constantly say, I'm just a civvie puke.).
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hobgoblin
post Jun 13 2011, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 13 2011, 08:43 PM) *
Actually you brought up the AK-112, and thus I went off on my usual rant. You only have yourself to blame. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

When did i mention the AK-112? I really hope your not confusing me with Hermit right now.
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hermit
post Jun 13 2011, 07:45 PM
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When did i mention the AK-112? I guess your confusing me with Fatum right now.

QUOTE
Depleted Uranium Tipped Rounds are Armour Defeating Ammunition ("Armour-Piercing", in other words) that can almost do the "Hollywood Armour Piercing" that gun nuts like myself leave shaking our heads. nyahnyah.gif It's used in tank rounds, where they're nicknamed "The Silver Bullet". I'm not entirely sure, but it might be used in smaller calibers as well.

Huh. Thanks. Gonna keep that in mind, since I play an ex military rigger. Also, DU rounds for handguns should have a more potent charge, right? Because the warhead is thatmuch heavier? Can normal weapons (real ones) even handle such scaled up ammo without exploding like a softair you try to fire live ammo with?

QUOTE
That is actually correct and does not need to be changed to 1990s. Besides, it was produced in 1970, I'm sure there were some movies in the 80s that featured them as well.

Used to think that 19X0s refers to the decade beginning with X, whereas 20th century refers to the century. At least that seems much more common than "the 1900s" for a whole century.
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