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> Gun Heaven out now--details on 32 guns, some new, some classics., Because "too many guns" is a phrase without meaning to us
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 23 2011, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 23 2011, 06:34 AM) *
Actually, the weapon with safe firing and no smartlink is like a curling iron with the capacity to play MP3, but neither internal memory nor a slot to put in a common memory chip or usb stick. In other words, while it clearly can play MP3s, it never will because it will never come in contact with one.

It contains a functionality that, as is, is useless. you can, presumably, listen to MP3s on your curling iron player thing if you're so inclined, so while it's a bizarre functionality, it at least is one that you can actually use. A better hyerbole example might be a car that has top-notch, functional and best quality cruise control, autopilot and all kinds of safety assistants, but neither engine nor wheels.


And yet, all it takes is a small amount of money to provide full functionality for the Electronics of the weapon, because, you know, the gun is still fully functional. Unlike your car scenario, which takes excessive amounts of Money just to make it functional. The gun works out of the box, your car analogy does not.

Apples and Oranges there Hermit...
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 23 2011, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 23 2011, 06:40 AM) *
No it's not

The gun only needs to be a smartlinked if you want to add Safe target system as a modification, god only knows why.

Also i have to say it's damm hilarious to see all of you spouting allkinds of hyperbole and bitch about writers not knowing their own rules, witch you yourself have no clue about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)


Actually, according to the Quote that you so generously provided.

QUOTE
To include the image recognizing add-on, the weapon must either be smartlinked or have a guncam modification. The image recognition software can be either programmed with general information (for example, preventing the weapon from firing at anybody wearing a Knight Errant uniform) or the biometric features of a single person. It can also be upgraded to accept more “safe images.”


You are pretty entertaining Max... The Smartlink/Guncam is a requirement to add IMAGE RECOGNITION to the system. The System Must have an Input for the Images and recognition software to interpret. You can't do that without the Smartlink or Guncam.

I Never said anything about writers not knowing the rules (You can check, you won't find it). In fact, the rules are pretty evident, and I DO have a clue about them, I just did not see the need to reference them, as you did. Thanks for the Reference. My statement was that the Safe Target System is not FULLY functional without a Smartgun System (or a Guncam, though I go with the Smartgun System personally). The parts that are not FULLY functional are the Image Recognition pieces.

You misinterpret the text to say that a Smartgun is required to add an After Market Safe Target System as a Modification, when in fact, all that is required is the Image Recognition Add-on in conjunction with an Installed Smartgun System or Guncam. Not the same thing that you are indicating above.

No worries though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mäx
post Jun 23 2011, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 23 2011, 04:52 PM) *
You misinterpret the text to say that a Smartgun is required to add an After Market Safe Target System as a Modification, when in fact, all that is required is the Image Recognition Add-on in conjunction with an Installed Smartgun System or Guncam. Not the same thing that you are indicating above.

No i dont:
QUOTE (Arsenal page 153)
Safe Target System (Smartguns Only): Th is is the internal
version of the safe target system accessory (p. 33).


And that last comment quite obviously wasn't aimed at you, but to those that where doing the stuff i mentioned (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Like maybe the guy i responded and quoted in the start of that post.
Not that you really know the rules either.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 23 2011, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 23 2011, 07:02 AM) *
No i dont:


And that last comment quite obviously wasn't aimed at you, but to those that where doing the stuff i mentioned (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Like maybe the guy i responded and quoted in the start of that post.
Not that you really know the rules either.


Why would you ever use an Internal Version unless it came standard? I know that I wouldn't use it very often. But I will give you that one. I don't generally look at a Safe target System as a Modification.

As for the obvious aiming of comments, sometimes it is hard to tell, especially when it is generic.

Whatever Max...
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Mäx
post Jun 23 2011, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 23 2011, 05:11 PM) *
Why would you ever use an Internal Version unless it came standard?

Because it's about 70% cheaper (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 23 2011, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 23 2011, 07:17 AM) *
Because it's about 70% cheaper (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I have too many other things to use my Modification Slots for, the Safe Target System is not generally an option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
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Mäx
post Jun 23 2011, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 23 2011, 05:18 PM) *
I have too many other things to use my Modification Slots for, the Safe Target System is not generally an option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Yeah, i don't really see the need for it,period.
There are better uses for the top and under barrel accessory slots too.

also to comment your earlier statement:
Safe target system is fully functional without smartlink, the image recognition is an optional extra feature that costs more money.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 23 2011, 02:39 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 23 2011, 07:29 AM) *
Yeah, i don't really see the need for it,period.
There are better uses for the top and under barrel accessory slots too.


Indeed...
Of the about 90 characters that I have created over the years in SR4, only one or two actually used the Safe Target System. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Wakshaani
post Jun 23 2011, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Fabe @ Jun 22 2011, 02:20 AM) *
Coming soon: Vending Machine Assassin Drones, Chose target set and contempt level ,drone self destructs upon termination of target .


And I can't find my old work for teh Shiawase holdout revolver.

Nuts.

Two items of note were that it was nicknamed the 'piece of Shiawase' by people who'd used one of the drekky, mass-produced things, an dthat they coul dbe found in vending machines. Slot 100 nuyen and a four-chambered special would kerchunk on down, fully loaded and ready to go. (The pistol was only 75Y normally, so, you aid a premium for those four bullets, but, if you're getting a gun from a vending machine, you probably really, REALLY need it.)

It was neat, just because people would go, "Oh yeah! Shiawase *does* make arms!"

Plus, you know ... vending machine pistol. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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CanRay
post Jun 23 2011, 05:20 PM
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Vending Machine Food is always more expensive for less quality and quantity.

I found that out when I was reading War! in a hospital ER Waiting Room at 2 in the morning.
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X-Kalibur
post Jun 23 2011, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 22 2011, 11:10 AM) *
Depends on the firearm. But the Chamber is where the round is held before it's detonated and it turns from a "Not Shooty" bullet into a "Shooty" bullet. (Sorry, old joke about the media and their portrayal of firearms.).

There are a few design tricks with the action and layout of the firearm to help deal with "felt recoil" (As the laws of physics prevent actual recoil.), might be what the authors (Who aren't gun nuts, obviously) are referring to. Some of these are very subtle and may seem like magic, but are just engineering.

Which, now that I think of it, is just a different form of magic, isn't it?


I was of course actually joking and referencing the "Magnets, how do they work?" meme, but anyway...

I think I have the answer... sort of. It also follows my train of thought in a way which is... maybe gas venting shouldn't work on the Alpha but it could run a sound suppressor without the loss of RC (making it the ideal infiltration AR). Any of you familiar with the H&K G11? While not truly a "special chamber design" it sounds like it might be close to what they were aiming for.
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Smokeskin
post Jun 24 2011, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Jun 22 2011, 02:33 PM) *
What I really dislike is that there is nothing special about them. But that's pretty much my problem with Shadowrun weapons - in my opinion, reading the description of a well-designed item should make you go "WOW WANT NOW". The monowhip would be a prime example of the stuff working like that.
As it is, Shadowrun, both in Arsenal, War! and Gun Heaven, has a bunch of weapons which are basically the same, with slight alterations to this and that stat, and this and that mods already made for you. I think Dark Heresy Core dealt with that right - "what we have here are generic versions, there's a million more models, each of those alters the stats a bit, feel free to write those up yourself". It's not all that bad, of course - say, there's the Executive Protector and the Clappistol in Arsenal, - but generally, nothing really catches the eye.



I made all weapons generic, with an added Weapon Feature each. Most weapons come in 1 or 2 variants, so weapons really are different. I generally let players get a certain weapon with a certain Feature if they want it though.

Weapon Features House Rule

Each weapon gets 1 Weapon Feature. Many weapons are available in different versions, letting players pick a Feature for their weapon. The GM may rule that certain weapons require a certain Feature, or that some Features are not available for certain weapons.

Low recoil: 1 point of recoil compensation
Accurate: Reduce modifiers for long and extreme range by 1
Variable gas vent: This weapon has internal gas vents on this weapon allows for the mounting of a silencer or suppressor. The weapon is only silenced if the gas vents are closed, which negates the recoil compensation. Opening or closing the gas vents takes a Simple Action (Free Action for smartlinked weapons).
Penetrator: -1 AP. Ammo only interchangable with other weapons of same class and Feature.
Massive: This weapon fires larger bullets at lower velocity. +1 DV, +1 AP, -33% clip size (suppression fire with a full clip is still possible even if it holds <20 rounds). Ammo only interchangable with other weapons of same class and Feature.
High Velocity: Per existing rules, apply qualities of Low Recoil, Extended Magazines, Gas Vent, no underbarrel accessories. Only available for High Velocity weapons.
Extended magazines: +66% magazine capacity.
Reliable: The weapon needs one more die roll of 1 than normal to glitch or critically glitch. It receives +/-3 dice when testing for maintenance or reliability.
Cheap: -50% cost.
Compact: Reduce Cumbersome Weapon Rating by 1. Only available for bullpup weapons.
Concealable: -1 die to Perception tests to notice the weapon. –25% magazine capacity.
Silent: When a silencer or suppressor is mounted, apply an additional –2 to Perception Tests to hear the weapon
Heavy Weapon: Heavy Weapons require the Heavy Weapon feature and fo not get additional features.
Sniper Rifle: Sniper Rifles require the Sniper Rifle feature and do no get additional features.
Special effect: Weapons with special effects (ceramic components, underwater firing, inconspicuous dissassembly, Burst Fire for Pistols of Shotguns, etc.) require the Special Effect and do not get additional features.
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X-Kalibur
post Jun 24 2011, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE
Variable gas vent: This weapon has internal gas vents on this weapon allows for the mounting of a silencer or suppressor. The weapon is only silenced if the gas vents are closed, which negates the recoil compensation. Opening or closing the gas vents takes a Simple Action (Free Action for smartlinked weapons).


This already exists for free on a gas-vented weapon.
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Fatum
post Jun 24 2011, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 22 2011, 10:57 PM) *
Well i hate to break it to you, but thats pretty much how it is in the real world too, doesn't really top people shouting "Do want" when they see some new(to them atleast) gun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Well, guns differ much more in RL even in the same class than they do in SR. If you go with simulationism, you have to account for that. For the most famous example, see AK-47vsM-16. Both are assault rifles, but firing the two is an unmistakably different experience; and I can think of quite a number of situations where users of each would shout "Do want" seeing the other.
For a gaming system somewhere between gamist and storytelling approach like Shadowrun, however, making equipment interesting and different is essential. There's just no point in statting up dozens of closely similar guns.

QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jun 24 2011, 04:32 PM) *
I made all weapons generic, with an added Weapon Feature each. Most weapons come in 1 or 2 variants, so weapons really are different. I generally let players get a certain weapon with a certain Feature if they want it though.

Weapon Features House Rule

Each weapon gets 1 Weapon Feature. Many weapons are available in different versions, letting players pick a Feature for their weapon. The GM may rule that certain weapons require a certain Feature, or that some Features are not available for certain weapons.
Well I'm not big on creating entirely new mechanics; so I just try to homebrew weapons that'd be interesting to use, have a certain zest you can't just replicate with mods and add-ons.
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Mäx
post Jun 25 2011, 10:11 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Jun 25 2011, 02:58 AM) *
Well, guns differ much more in RL even in the same class than they do in SR. If you go with simulationism, you have to account for that. For the most famous example, see AK-47vsM-16. Both are assault rifles, but firing the two is an unmistakably different experience; and I can think of quite a number of situations where users of each would shout "Do want" seeing the other.

No, at the level of abstraction used in the SR4:s weapon rules, there really is zero difference between AK-47 and M-16.
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Fabe
post Jun 25 2011, 01:39 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 25 2011, 06:11 AM) *
No, at the level of abstraction used in the SR4:s weapon rules, there really is zero difference between AK-47 and M-16.


I disagree, from what I know about those two weapons I would say that in SR terms the AK-47 would do more damage and have better armor penetration.
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Mäx
post Jun 25 2011, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Fabe @ Jun 25 2011, 04:39 PM) *
I disagree, from what I know about those two weapons I would say that in SR terms the AK-47 would do more damage and have better armor penetration.

The difference between an assault rifle and a battle rifle in SR is exactly 1 point of damage, so no there really isn't room for one AR to do more damage then an other AR.
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Faelan
post Jun 25 2011, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (Fabe @ Jun 25 2011, 09:39 AM) *
I disagree, from what I know about those two weapons I would say that in SR terms the AK-47 would do more damage and have better armor penetration.


While the AK-47 uses a 7.62mm round it is much shorter than a 7.62mm NATO. It's sauce is equally weak compared to a 5.56mm NATO. The AK-47 is the weapon of choice to arm a conscription force with, however if you have the time to train them how to shoot, I would take any of the full size M-16 incarnations over the AK-47. Volume of fire, reliability and simplicity were the driving forces behind the AK-47, along with simple manufacturing (stamped versus machined), and large tolerances in all of its operating parts. It is highly inaccurate, but fun to use, and fairly effective at shorter ranges. It fit in perfectly with Soviet doctrine at the time. It's descendants are much more effective weapon systems, however with the increase in accuracy and tighter tolerances they have lost some of the fabled reliability. The M-16 is very accurate, and very reliable when you perform regular field maintenance (clean it). From personal experience I would choose the M-16 every time, since I know it will hit what I shoot at. At 500 yds. I can reliably fire a 10" group using the iron sights of the weapon. The AK-47 iron sights for lack of a better word suck. You are very lucky to hit anything at 300 yds. In close in fighting (CQB) or while fighting in dense undergrowth neither really has an advantage, but open things up and well I know what I would be using. So in terms of SR stats they are the same neither has a clear advantage.
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Critias
post Jun 25 2011, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (Fabe @ Jun 25 2011, 08:39 AM) *
I disagree, from what I know about those two weapons I would say that in SR terms the AK-47 would do more damage and have better armor penetration.

It would, if there was more granularity to the core mechanics of the system; but there isn't. +1 damage is a big deal, when the basic combat mechanics tend to work best with numbers in a very specific range.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 25 2011, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (Faelan @ Jun 25 2011, 07:25 AM) *
While the AK-47 uses a 7.62mm round it is much shorter than a 7.62mm NATO. It's sauce is equally weak compared to a 5.56mm NATO. The AK-47 is the weapon of choice to arm a conscription force with, however if you have the time to train them how to shoot, I would take any of the full size M-16 incarnations over the AK-47. Volume of fire, reliability and simplicity were the driving forces behind the AK-47, along with simple manufacturing (stamped versus machined), and large tolerances in all of its operating parts. It is highly inaccurate, but fun to use, and fairly effective at shorter ranges. It fit in perfectly with Soviet doctrine at the time. It's descendants are much more effective weapon systems, however with the increase in accuracy and tighter tolerances they have lost some of the fabled reliability. The M-16 is very accurate, and very reliable when you perform regular field maintenance (clean it). From personal experience I would choose the M-16 every time, since I know it will hit what I shoot at. At 500 yds. I can reliably fire a 10" group using the iron sights of the weapon. The AK-47 iron sights for lack of a better word suck. You are very lucky to hit anything at 300 yds. In close in fighting (CQB) or while fighting in dense undergrowth neither really has an advantage, but open things up and well I know what I would be using. So in terms of SR stats they are the same neither has a clear advantage.



+1... What more really need be said. If the SR system was more detailed from a firearms mechanical perspective, it might make a (Small) difference, but in the end, they really are more similar in use than they are dissimilar. At least as far as SR is Concerned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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CanRay
post Jun 25 2011, 05:55 PM
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It doesn't help that some of the "Training Lacking Persons" tend to think of the AK-47's sights as a "Power Gauge".

"When I put it all the way to 300, that is how many Infidels I will kill!"
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X-Kalibur
post Jun 25 2011, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 25 2011, 10:55 AM) *
It doesn't help that some of the "Training Lacking Persons" tend to think of the AK-47's sights as a "Power Gauge".

"When I put it all the way to 300, that is how many Infidels I will kill!"


Mine only goes to 11... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
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Fatum
post Jun 25 2011, 11:49 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 25 2011, 02:11 PM) *
No, at the level of abstraction used in the SR4:s weapon rules, there really is zero difference between AK-47 and M-16.
You claimed that in RL new weapons do not produce the wow effect. If you'd read my previous post, you'd notice that I point out the obvious case of such; and moreover, state that if you expect realism from SR (if you do not, why would you use reactions to RL weapons as a basis for your opinions on SR weapons to begin with), the assault rifles should get different stats, for reasons obvious. Was pointing out the fact that they do not now supposed to rebut that? If you do not expect realism, your argument on RL weapons not having wow effect is meaningless, too.

QUOTE (Faelan @ Jun 25 2011, 06:25 PM) *
The AK-47 iron sights for lack of a better word suck. You are very lucky to hit anything at 300 yds.
The standard qualifying standard in the Russian army is hitting a meter-high ("dug-in combatant") target at 200 m. So it's not like you can't hit anything.
Just saying, let's not have the ten-thousands round of AKvsM-16 argument here.
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Mäx
post Jun 25 2011, 11:57 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Jun 26 2011, 02:49 AM) *
You claimed that in RL new weapons do not produce the wow effect. If you'd read my previous post, you'd notice that I point out the obvious case of such; and moreover, state that if you expect realism from SR (if you do not, why would you use reactions to RL weapons as a basis for your opinions on SR weapons to begin with), the assault rifles should get different stats, for reasons obvious. Was pointing out the fact that they do not now supposed to rebut that? If you do not expect realism, your argument on RL weapons not having wow effect is meaningless, too.

Okey, go back and read my original post again, because i definedly said the exact opposite of what your claiming.
RL weapons most definedly have "wow effect", even thought there really isn't much difference's in them(incide any given "weapon class"), just like the guns in SR.
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CanRay
post Jun 26 2011, 12:08 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Jun 25 2011, 06:49 PM) *
Just saying, let's not have the ten-thousands round of AKvsM-16 argument here.
Why not? It's in every other firearm thread in every other forum on the Internet? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

OK, folks, honestly, apples and oranges. The Assault Rifle is a compromise between a Machine Gun (Which were crew served at the time) and a Combat Rifle (Which were Bolt Action at the time.). Typically, they favor one or the other.

The AK favors the MG for rate and weight of fire, the M-16 favors the rifle for accuracy and ease of carrying and use. The other issues are found in various other arms that also have the issues argued for and against.

As my Mr. Johsnon should have said often enough to my PCs: "The right tool for the job, you Tools!"
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RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 17th May 2025 - 04:41 PM

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