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Draco18s
post Jul 1 2011, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Jun 30 2011, 11:26 PM) *
So help me Flying Spaghetti Monster, if you say Pun-Pun.....


No, I don't know how it was done. Pun-Pun, however, isn't limited to 100s.

QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Jun 30 2011, 11:29 PM) *
You must not play much 3.5. One of my favorite characters could run around a European nation in six seconds and when he gets back to his starting point the entire nation bursts into flames.


That spell (combo) got errata'd. Chuck E. Cheese is no longer valid. Footsteps of the Divine can no longer have it's duration enhanced via any means (the cheese comes from the fact that the spell increased the subject's base move speed by 10 feet per round, and can be ended early to give the subject "10 feet" times "rounds remaining" in extra movement for one turn: if you get the spell to last for 4 days that's 57,600 rounds....).

QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 1 2011, 09:10 AM) *
Testing for game balance. Give ideas to your group's munchkin/power gamer/rules lawyer and evaluate the result.


Or in some cases, giving it to a competent player. Iron Claw looks really well balanced. Until you realize that the developers never combined classes and races that were meant for each other. Their sample characters include a rabbit anamist ("barbarian" in D&D terms): the rabbit doesn't have a natural attack (e.g. claws) that get better per the class. Bat wizard: the only flying race paired with the only class that gets flight. Etc.
(Although a friend of mine did create a rather effective elephant rogue...)
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longbowrocks
post Jul 1 2011, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 1 2011, 01:27 AM) *
No Analyze Device and Possession spirits? I am disappoint...

As of 4A, I don't think the possession spirits will help. At least not while possessing me.
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longbowrocks
post Jul 1 2011, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 1 2011, 01:33 AM) *
If he's lucky, he can get an edge point more.

I thought of the edge earlier yesterday, but forgot about it later on. Thanks.
QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 1 2011, 01:33 AM) *
And he should also cast Analyze Device on the rifle and have a machine sprite inside.

I don't do magic. I have a vague idea of what it can do, but I don't know many of the specific spells. Would the bonus from analyze device stack with the machine sprite? Also, what would be the bonus from each? I won't have time to look it up at any point in the next few days.
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Rubic
post Jul 1 2011, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jul 1 2011, 09:34 AM) *
I don't do magic. I have a vague idea of what it can do, but I don't know many of the specific spells. Would the bonus from analyze device stack with the machine sprite? Also, what would be the bonus from each? I won't have time to look it up at any point in the next few days.

Considering that Resonance and Magic are mutually exclusive, then probably not, unless you have a L6 Technomancer contact just falling all over themselves to keep you supplied with sprites.
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DamienKnight
post Jul 1 2011, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 30 2011, 11:07 PM) *
Depends on the edition.

in 2e, it was all dependent on your ability score rolls. If you rolled high, you could easily be better off at first level than a higher-level character with lower stats. 3.0/3.5 didn't depend so much on ability scores, but you could combine feats, races, and prestige classes in such a way as to get insane benefits. Pun-Pun the infinite kobold is the worst example of this.

4e's a lot more resistant to breakage. You can still optimize the hell out of a character, but the differences aren't so glaring. Also, it's really difficult to end up with a gimped character in 4e.
Attribute impact did not really change between 2 and 3.5.

Prestige classes became awesome, which I suppose reduced the importance of stats... tho many of them are amplified by good stats. Not trolling, just saying... your wrong.

You are absolutely right about 4th edition. It is very resistant to breakage, mostly because they removed most of your ability to customize your character. Sucky way of fixing it, but it works.

QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jul 1 2011, 09:34 AM) *
I thought of the edge earlier yesterday, but forgot about it later on. Thanks.

I don't do magic. I have a vague idea of what it can do, but I don't know many of the specific spells. Would the bonus from analyze device stack with the machine sprite? Also, what would be the bonus from each? I won't have time to look it up at any point in the next few days.
With surge you can just barely get metagenetic improvement agility and exception agility, but your Positive Qualities are used up. No points for Lucky if you follow the normal 35BP limit.

For that matter, you cannot have Aptitude, Metagenetic Improvement AND Exceptional Agility, AND Adept. That exceeds the 35 bp limit by 20.

Also, lose the superthyroid and half the muscle toner and you can hit your 15 agility with adept powers with a legal starting character.

Also, you can get one more die with Enhanced Articulation. I am not sure about compatibility, but Reflex Records should give you a bonus skill die too.
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James McMurray
post Jul 1 2011, 04:10 PM
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For bursting, Lucky is better than an extra Agility.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2011, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 1 2011, 08:43 AM) *
Also, you can get one more die with Enhanced Articulation.


Enhanced Articulation does not apply to Combat Skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Faraday
post Jul 1 2011, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 09:18 AM) *
Enhanced Articulation does not apply to Combat Skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I might note that it DOES, however, affect gymnastics dodging.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2011, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Faraday @ Jul 1 2011, 09:22 AM) *
I might note that it DOES, however, affect gymnastics dodging.


Gymnastics is not a Combat Skill... Enhanced Articulation adds nothing to actual sharpshooting.
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Faraday
post Jul 1 2011, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 09:23 AM) *
Gymnastics is not a Combat Skill... Enhanced Articulation adds nothing to actual sharpshooting.

I'm just being pedantic for its own sake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Rubic
post Jul 1 2011, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 1 2011, 10:43 AM) *
With surge you can just barely get metagenetic improvement agility and exception agility, but your Positive Qualities are used up. No points for Lucky if you follow the normal 35BP limit.

For that matter, you cannot have Aptitude, Metagenetic Improvement AND Exceptional Agility, AND Adept. That exceeds the 35 bp limit by 20.

Surge is technically on it's own BP limit. You spend the BP on the surge (5, 10, or 15), take that many points in negative qualities and then buy twice that many in positive qualities. Any overage counts towards your regular limit either way, so a 15 BP SuRGE with 20 extra points of SuRGEd Positive Qualities would cover all your positives regardless, and 20 pts of SuRGED flaws on a 5 BP SuRGE would cover 15 BP of your negative qualities limit. (you can check it in Runner's Companion, pg 73, bottom left corner)

[Metagenetic Improvement (20 BP) + Aptitude (10 BP) - 15 BP of negative metagenetic qualities] = only 15 BP SuRGE (positive quality). 20 pts left to play with for positives, and all of your negatives free for choosing.

Also, Aptitude can, technically and potentially, be purchased after character creation for twice the BP cost in Karma, with GM approval. Obviously subject to change from table to table, so YMMV.
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DamienKnight
post Jul 1 2011, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 11:18 AM) *
Enhanced Articulation does not apply to Combat Skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Ah, i see the distinction there. So sensible that it adds to your perception, but not your martial arts. Clever.
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X-Kalibur
post Jul 1 2011, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 1 2011, 08:36 AM) *
Ah, i see the distinction there. So sensible that it adds to your perception, but not your martial arts. Clever.


Still wrong. The text states that it applies to Physical skills that are linked to Physical Attributes. Perception is linked to Intuition, which is not a physical attribute.
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Faraday
post Jul 1 2011, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 1 2011, 09:42 AM) *
Still wrong. The text states that it applies to Physical skills that are linked to Physical Attributes. Perception is linked to Intuition, which is not a physical attribute.

Indeed. Generally, it affects the athletics group as well as palming, infiltration, escape artistry, parachuting, and diving.

QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 1 2011, 09:35 AM) *
Also, Aptitude can, technically and potentially, be purchased after character creation for twice the BP cost in Karma, with GM approval. Obviously subject to change from table to table, so YMMV.
I could see that. Likely involves a bit of down-time to get that kind of ability. You won't be Florence Nightengale overnight.
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Rubic
post Jul 1 2011, 05:01 PM
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I also realized something else that would be potentially game-breaking...

Runner's Companion section on Metagenetic qualities lists rules for picking them up as Gene-tweaking...
Augmentation has a the Genetic Heritage quality at 10 BP that allows you to pick up ANY such gene-tweaking for no additional cost beyond that 10 BP. So, if your GM is a doormat, you could arguably get Metagenetic Improvement AND Genetic Optimizaiton for 10 BP each, totaling as much as Metagenetic Improvment as it's own quality, on its own.

Also, has there been any errata on Augmentation? The description for Genetic Heritage seems to me to indicate picking up the tweak without an essence loss ("... start play with one genetic modification for free"). Without errata, that's a little too open to interpretation (and therefor munchkinism).
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Draco18s
post Jul 1 2011, 05:07 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 1 2011, 01:01 PM) *
Also, has there been any errata on Augmentation? The description for Genetic Heritage seems to me to indicate picking up the tweak without an essence loss ("... start play with one genetic modification for free"). Without errata, that's a little too open to interpretation (and therefor munchkinism).


There's been a discussion on that quote. The generally accepted meaning is "no nuyen cost." You still pay the essence.
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Makki
post Jul 1 2011, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 1 2011, 05:27 AM) *
No Analyze Device and Possession spirits? I am disappoint...

And where is the Machine Sprite enhancing the smartgun?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2011, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 1 2011, 09:36 AM) *
Ah, i see the distinction there. So sensible that it adds to your perception, but not your martial arts. Clever.

Nope, it does not add to Perception, because it is not based upon a Physical Stat (Perception is Intuition based)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

EDIT: Ooops, looks like X-Kalibur beat me to it.
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Mr. Smileys
post Jul 1 2011, 06:04 PM
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What about a Reflex Recorder for longarms. That should give you another +1 to your DP. And then taking the Krav-Maga Martial art for take aim as a free action. So in one IP you Take Aim x2 (1 free, 1 simple) then shoot and have a DP of 45.

Then you also take the Lucky quality giving you +1 edge putting you at a DP of 46 re-rolling all 6s.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2011, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (Mr. Smileys @ Jul 1 2011, 11:04 AM) *
What about a Reflex Recorder for longarms. That should give you another +1 to your DP. And then taking the Krav-Maga Martial art for take aim as a free action. So in one IP you Take Aim x2 (1 free, 1 simple) then shoot and have a DP of 45.

Then you also take the Lucky quality giving you +1 edge putting you at a DP of 46 re-rolling all 6s.


Sorry, But I am going to have to ask this. What, exactly, is this going to do that 20 Dice would not? In the end, the target is dead whether the DP is 45 Dice or 20 Dice. I just see absolutely no use for this in the least.
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Mr. Smileys
post Jul 1 2011, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 10:12 AM) *
Sorry, But I am going to have to ask this. What, exactly, is this going to do that 20 Dice would not? In the end, the target is dead whether the DP is 45 Dice or 20 Dice. I just see absolutely no use for this in the least.


For killing the tank or Dragon (not Great Dragon) in one shot.
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Rubic
post Jul 1 2011, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 01:12 PM) *
Sorry, But I am going to have to ask this. What, exactly, is this going to do that 20 Dice would not? In the end, the target is dead whether the DP is 45 Dice or 20 Dice. I just see absolutely no use for this in the least.

It's the difference between the target becoming a corpse, and the target disappearing in a red puff of logic.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2011, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Mr. Smileys @ Jul 1 2011, 11:19 AM) *
For killing the tank or Dragon (not Great Dragon) in one shot.


*Shrug* Whatever... 20 Dice will kill a Dragon just as dead as 45.
The trick is to be in the right place at the right time to use those 20 Dice... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Rubic
post Jul 1 2011, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 01:26 PM) *
*Shrug* Whatever... 20 Dice will kill a Dragon just as dead as 45.
The trick is to be in the right place at the right time to use those 20 Dice... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with 45 dice, there are more right places and right times.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2011, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 1 2011, 11:29 AM) *
with 45 dice, there are more right places and right times.


Killing a Dragon is SO outside the scope of the game that I don't even care... I have yet to see a need for more than 20 dice in any given test.
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