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HunterHerne
post Aug 10 2011, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 10 2011, 06:43 PM) *
Exactly. Also, even if it was, drakes are sufficiently metahuman. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


There is that, too.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 11 2011, 01:05 AM
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QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 10 2011, 05:56 PM) *
As far as I know, that not the wholу board. And some of them were eliminated - Darke as part of Harlequins Back, Atzcapotzaico in 2064 and I remember Augmentation mention that two dragons (?) are leaning the house. That leaves only the rumored corrupted dragon and maybe some leftovers. So it's hard to believe that the whole mega would do evil for the sake of evil. I just don't see a reason for Aztechnology to, for example, invade CAS. What's there for them that needs conquest? After all, as any corp, Big A needs client first of all, so that the corp can live long and prosper.


While it is not spelled out, a lot of people inferred that Aztechnology is in War with Amazonia because they want something there. The locus that is possibly feeding the accelerated growth of the rain forest.
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Smirnov
post Aug 11 2011, 08:32 AM
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I thought that amazonian forests were growing due to their blood ritual. You know, the good blood magic, the kind that elves, dragons and amazonians use, not the evil one, which Big A uses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Still, what's the point of going for that particular locus? Spy Games said that Aztlan needs Denver for it's ley lines, and it makes sense - they are producing magical goods and stuff. But that doesn't mean conquest too. All they need is to get their sector back. The worst scenario I can imagine is that Aztlan wants to be new Thera, the wand to build their caers, admitting only aztlaners into them, then bring in the Horrors and rule the world afterwards. But do they need that much land for that?
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 11 2011, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 11 2011, 05:32 AM) *
The worst scenario I can imagine is that Aztlan wants to be new Thera, the wand to build their caers, admitting only aztlaners into them, then bring in the Horrors and rule the world afterwards. But do they need that much land for that?


Did Hitler need the entire Europe and Russia for the germans to live in?
Like I said, perhaps there are evil geniuses leading Aztlan and Aztechnology that do evil just for the Lulz?
Perhaps Amazonia is a source of True Wood and True Water.
And if nothing else works for you, perhaps the guy that first came with the idea of Aztechnology being evil was just a bigot with an axe to grind against mexicans.
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Smirnov
post Aug 11 2011, 01:23 PM
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And I was waiting when would Godwin's law be invoked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Don't want to steer the discussion into that direction, will only say that post-Awakening Mexico is nothing like post-WW1 Germany.
But I'll probably will have to bear with evil lulz. Or change the setting a bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 11 2011, 01:26 PM
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Heh. It's just sort of a dumb question: they're evil by definition, so therefore they do evil things. They're not evil *because* they like Blood Magic, but vice versa. Yeah, it's a literary, arbitrary definition of their 'character', but it is who they are. At least, as far as we know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Smirnov
post Aug 11 2011, 01:29 PM
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And that's what's bothering me. I just don't... like the lack of internal logic and logic loops like 'I do evil things because I'm evil and I'm evil because I do evil things. For no real reason or purpose.' But that's certainly my problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Neraph
post Aug 11 2011, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 10 2011, 03:56 PM) *
As far as I know, that not the wholу board. And some of them were eliminated - Darke as part of Harlequins Back, Atzcapotzaico in 2064 and I Thanks for the points! I figured as much, but it gets the character in rather narrow niche. But that's probably intended.
Btw, would casting Armor on Hardeded Armor make the bonus Armor hardened as well?

No.

QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 10 2011, 03:56 PM) *
Can you expand Invoking a little? I know that Invoking is great for combat spirits - they get physical boost. And some greater form power rock, but is there anything I miss?

LoS attacks become LoS(A). Harder to Banish. More Optional Powers. Greater Power, as you pointed out. Increased physical stats.

QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 10 2011, 03:56 PM) *
But Blood Spirits still don't look that terrifying to me. In story texts they are like 'omg! teh blood spirit! we are doomed!', but mechanically I don't see that much of horror. As one russian joke says, 'yes, horror. But not the HORROR! HORROR! HORROR!'

I guess, but consider this: They can use their Essence Drain to boost their own Magic Rating, increasing the dice they have for all their Powers and increasing the base DV of any attacks they have (such as their free Natural Weapon and any Elemental Attacks they may have).
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Smirnov
post Aug 11 2011, 01:49 PM
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One more thing. More of 'are we doing it right?' qusetion.

Imagine the scene. Two runners, one fresh 400-point heavy augmented orc and one 400-BP plus some 50 Karma moderately augmented elf ninja ambush three yak elites fighters (Red Samurai stats from SR4A). For the sake of simplicity, let's say their car is rammed by another car (in the Barrens, so no quick response). The ninja literally jumps atop the yak car, the orc is some 30 metres away, behind cover. One yak rolls from the side door, the other one through the roof hatch. Then happens the strange part. The roof yak exchanges a few shots with elf and goes down to narrow long burst. The other yak goes down after two bursts from the orc (both using Ares Alpha). The elf jumps down into the car to snatch the person they need to extract but catches a long burst from the third yak instead. Some edge spending later the elf is almost down, but here comes the ork. He runs to the cars, rushes in and punches the third yak to death in two attacks. End combat.

Of course, yaks were rolling pretty bad, but the whole scene left me a bit puzzled. I wasn't expecting this duo to get down three Red Samurai so casually. Of course, the orc is pretty optimised (I hope he is, because I wrote the statline for the character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) and the elf is down after Adrenaline pomp wears off (the stun damage would bring our ninja right to zero boxes left on both tracks), but still it seems to easy. Are we missing any crucial details or starting characters can take on Red Samurai and win with almost no casualties?


And while i remember, the riggers. More likely the drones.
I've been reading the big book about them, and it seems that if the drone master isn't going to jump into them, the drones are fully autonomous. Is it right? So, given money to buy best programms and time to tune the drones to respond to the right commands, any character can become a drone master, with little need to jump into the drones?
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Smirnov
post Aug 11 2011, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 11 2011, 05:48 PM) *
No.

Is it 'no' to both points or only to last one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 11 2011, 05:48 PM) *
LoS attacks become LoS(A). Harder to Banish. More Optional Powers. Greater Power, as you pointed out. Increased physical stats.

Yeah, LoS(A) is what I forgot. Quite nasty, especially for some powers.

QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 11 2011, 05:48 PM) *
I guess, but consider this: They can use their Essence Drain to boost their own Magic Rating, increasing the dice they have for all their Powers and increasing the base DV of any attacks they have (such as their free Natural Weapon and any Elemental Attacks they may have).

Ok that's what I've been missing. Essence Drain boosts Magic?
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Neraph
post Aug 11 2011, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 11 2011, 08:49 AM) *
Of course, yaks were rolling pretty bad, but the whole scene left me a bit puzzled. I wasn't expecting this duo to get down three Red Samurai so casually. Of course, the orc is pretty optimised (I hope he is, because I wrote the statline for the character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) and the elf is down after Adrenaline pomp wears off (the stun damage would bring our ninja right to zero boxes left on both tracks), but still it seems to easy. Are we missing any crucial details or starting characters can take on Red Samurai and win with almost no casualties?

First off, the Red Samurai are not equipped properly if you just took them from the books.

QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 11 2011, 08:49 AM) *
And while i remember, the riggers. More likely the drones.
I've been reading the big book about them, and it seems that if the drone master isn't going to jump into them, the drones are fully autonomous. Is it right? So, given money to buy best programms and time to tune the drones to respond to the right commands, any character can become a drone master, with little need to jump into the drones?

Have you seen my drone thread?
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Neraph
post Aug 11 2011, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 11 2011, 08:52 AM) *
Is it 'no' to both points or only to last one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Trying to hurry before work, so I didn't edit it properly. The armor stacks, but doesn't become Hardened. Talk to your GM about how Hardened would interact with Normal Armor.

QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 11 2011, 08:52 AM) *
Yeah, LoS(A) is what I forgot. Quite nasty, especially for some powers.

Now you're thinking with Portals.

QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 11 2011, 08:52 AM) *
Ok that's what I've been missing. Essence Drain boosts Magic?

Page 294, SR4A, last paragraph on the page.
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Smirnov
post Aug 11 2011, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 11 2011, 05:55 PM) *
Page 294, SR4A, last paragraph on the page.

Thanks! Will look into it.
There are just to many rules to remember at once -_-
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Smirnov
post Aug 11 2011, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 11 2011, 05:52 PM) *
First off, the Red Samurai are not equipped properly if you just took them from the books.

The lack of Edge on the guys also bothered me. You probably meant this post instead. Thanks for pointing to the thread! It's useful beyond praise
But other than stats, is there anything we could miss? I know my depiction of the scene is scetchy at best, but what will a bunch of these guys do if they are ambushed? As a routine drill, for example.

QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 11 2011, 05:52 PM) *

Seen it, but haven't read through it yet. will do now.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 11 2011, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 11 2011, 07:00 AM) *
The lack of Edge on the guys also bothered me. You probably meant this post instead. Thanks for pointing to the thread! It's useful beyond praise
But other than stats, is there anything we could miss? I know my depiction of the scene is scetchy at best, but what will a bunch of these guys do if they are ambushed? As a routine drill, for example.


Seen it, but haven't read through it yet. will do now.


Mooks do not have individual edge (unless they are important enough to the story to warrant such), they have Mook Edge, and in the Red Samurai's Case, it would be Edge 5 (IIRC) for the Group...
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Fatum
post Aug 11 2011, 02:28 PM
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I feel that Red Samurai, being the elite force that they are, should be personalized NPCs, anyway. And on par with the runners at the very least in what comes to points.
Human opposition seems to be really lacking in the books, anyway, while there are insanely strong critters (when played right) thanks to the powers they have.
For that reason, I just have stat blocks pregenned for several kinds of opposition the runners are likely to encounter (Red Samurai are not in the mix since I don't believe that when a corp knows about you enough to send those guys, you stand a real chance to survive the whole gig).
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longbowrocks
post Aug 11 2011, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (Smirnov @ Jul 27 2011, 06:18 AM) *
Edit: sorry for the typos. Tried to catch tham all.

What make you think you can be the very best, like no one ever was? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
*also: "tham", but that's not the important part.
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Smirnov
post Aug 11 2011, 02:31 PM
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I agree with Fatum. Red Samurai and Ghosts are considered elite, crème de la crème, so I think they should have personal Edge. Still, group Edge is fine too, and that's clearly what we've been missing out.

QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Aug 11 2011, 06:30 PM) *
What make you think you can be the very best, like no one ever was? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
*also: "tham", but that's not the important part.

You noticed that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I thought to fix it, but decided it would look funny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It's still hard to write large posts. I almost feel the text degrading by the line. That means I need more practice.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 11 2011, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 11 2011, 10:29 AM) *
And that's what's bothering me. I just don't... like the lack of internal logic and logic loops like 'I do evil things because I'm evil and I'm evil because I do evil things. For no real reason or purpose.' But that's certainly my problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


We've been over this A LOT.
Shadowrun requires suspension of disbelief and a lot of it.
How 1% of the American population even with Magic was capable of taking half the country from the other 99% is something most people can't accept.
Same thing for the first Euro Wars.
The thing is, a LOT of Shadowrun events are the consequence of the rule of cool and nothing else.
And sorry for invoking Hitler, but it was the best comparison I could make.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 11 2011, 03:51 PM
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Don't invoke Hitler, his Great Form is awful.

The fact is that the fictional universe of SR has 'real evil' in it. There's plenty of gritty human grey area, but there are things outside of reality that want to destroy us all; they're evil. AFAIK, the Azzies are dialed in to that, so they're for-real evil, not just 'doing bad things'.
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Fatum
post Aug 11 2011, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 11 2011, 07:51 PM) *
Don't invoke Hitler, his Great Form is awful.
Dunno, liked the gatling guns, personally.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 11 2011, 07:51 PM) *
The fact is that the fictional universe of SR has 'real evil' in it. There's plenty of gritty human grey area, but there are things outside of reality that want to destroy us all; they're evil. AFAIK, the Azzies are dialed in to that, so they're for-real evil, not just 'doing bad things'.
Don't they have some cunning plan with that? Like, their own cairn already built or something like that?
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 11 2011, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 11 2011, 12:54 PM) *
Dunno, liked the gatling guns, personally.

Don't they have some cunning plan with that? Like, their own cairn already built or something like that?


I believe that's the reason they would attack Amazonia.
True Wood and True Water.
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Draco18s
post Aug 11 2011, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 11 2011, 01:18 PM) *
I believe that's the reason they would attack Amazonia.
True Wood and True Water.


True Blood, too?
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 11 2011, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 11 2011, 02:20 PM) *
True Blood, too?


Neh, if that was the case, they would be invading Cas to reach Bon Temps.
Which reminds me. Does every show with vampires have a city with its personal hellsmouth?
I mean... Just not only Charlene Harris ripped off the World of Darkness, it must rip off Buffy too?
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Smirnov
post Aug 12 2011, 08:52 AM
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And another question. What's the fuss about Emotitoys? I've read the entry in Arsenal, but fail to grasp their brokenness, which is often mention on the forum.

QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 11 2011, 09:25 PM) *
Which reminds me. Does every show with vampires have a city with its personal hellsmouth?
I mean... Just not only Charlene Harris ripped off the World of Darkness, it must rip off Buffy too?

As far as I remember, Kindred didn't have it. But I watched the series quite some time ago, may be forgetting some things.
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