We are just running ghost cartels and reached the clash-site in Honk Kong (Kowloon Massacre). At the end of our last session i entered the "Yama King is standing between you and your escape-helicopter"-situation and i really have to say that the authors either seem to be completely insane OR they don´t have the slightest clue how SR4 works. I had similar thoughts before, as we the GM told us the story about "attach a water-mine on a boat that is surrounded by masses of sharks" and i agreed to my feeling as we were attacked by 7!!!! shedim onboard. I don´t know how often the GM had to save our asses so please tell me which kind of runner-team is capable to survive this book? Ryanthusar and his expert team of super-runners? One shedim is doable, 2 are heavy but 7 at the same time? Nuts. I play a really strong mage, rating 3 initiate with magic 6 and now i am standing in a rating 3-4 domain. The Miniguns of the helicopter don´t harm the big demon, my comrades obviously can´t do more damage than this and every magical character is castrated by half they magic-rating. Is this a big bad (and expensive) joke?

their are lot's of heroic stories about the yama king. Again, you're not alone against him. therer are hundreds of gang grunts invading the complex across the roofs so, he will be interested in their hopeless souls, too. I banished him with two Edge-boosted attempts, btw.

however, every adventure is just a guideline for the GM. I don't think we had 7 Shedim, as our Runner Team was only 3 guys.
I think it's not the book's fault, but the GM. If he has to save your ass at the climax he should have adjusted the problem from the beginning.

btw, I'll be in Stuttgart soon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Agreed. Adventures are not scriptures cast in stone, an should be tailored for each group. Actually, more often than not you have to modify the adventure heavily since at least one player has already read the book (and of course he won't say).

Our group creamed the Yama-king. Gotta love heavy weapons+possession mages.

I've found that this kind of thing can be an issue for GMs who come from games that have a more detailed process for scaling encounters (READ: D&D of all flavors). SR relies much more on instinct and kludging die rolls (because let's face it, sometimes the players come up with a plan so genius it nullifies all of the difficulty, or a lucky roll, etc), and some GMs also fudge rolls to prevent TPKs, though I prefer SR to be more deadly in this regard.

Also remember that just because he's between you and the helicoptor doesn't mean the helicoptor can't take off while he lives ala Zelda. Run past him and take your licks and GTFO if that's what you need to do.

It's a bit offtopic, but really, D&D CRs are not that meaningful, especially if you have competent optimizers in your group. So good DMs don't pay them much attention, either.

What do you want to bet your GM toned it down in some way shape or form?

The first time I took players through it, they creamed the Yama King. Troll Archer + explosive arrowheads for the win.

The second time, they had the master shedim coming after them: the mystic adept tried to banish it, died in the attempt (pulled a HoG to survive) and seriously pissed it off. When it returned, it called all its buddies, and they started taking over the corpses of the fallen in the massacre... and there were a lot of fallen.

The players tried to negotiate; they managed to persuade the Yama King that the master shedim was a bigger threat, and they'd deal with it for him, if he agreed to let them pass. He agreed on the grounds that they deal with it right away. This forced me to take a half-hour break as I had to figure out how to send the PC's to hell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) The Yama King ripped open an astral gateway to the Master Shedin's home realm, and they found themselves int he wild west, near Death Valley. Long story short, they defeated the master shedin in his home realm, destroying him for good. They returned to the real world with only a few seconds elapsed, and the Yama King let the go without a fight.

Now, I'm making this sound easier than it was: the team did a lot of arguing over what to do. At one point, they actually swung on each other, which I had to stop. Bottom line is, that wild tangent was a lot more fun that duking it out with the Yama King would've been.

Yes.

Especially Bobby. *nods*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Why?

They're artists.

Insane is part of the job description.

Why'd they swing on each other, or why'd I stop them?

The characters almost came to blows over the best way to handle the Yama King. The mystic adept was going to single-handedly charge the Yama King, and the other player was going to shoot him in the back to stop him. The players blew up over the fact that one of them was going to kill the other outright. I don't allow PvP in my games, consider it a house rule. I had to firmly remind them of that fact, so the scene could go on.

Hey, Kid Stealth once saved Wolf by shooting him in the back.

Of course, the Murder Machine shot him in a way that wasn't lethal, and knew just how much armour Wolf wore...

So you're that guy. : )

Yeah, we had our mage just levitate us the fuck away. It became the chopper's problem and they ran the other direction. I think they made it but I don't remember. The moral of the story is, sometimes the fact that they're bigger and scarier than you simply means you should not try to fight them.

I don't think that was meant as praise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Why'd you stop them. The characters had IC reason to attack each other, apparently, why prevent them from taking the course of action they desire?
I strongly feel that GM's job is sometimes akin to that of a game engine - while it's him who places the obstacles for the runners to overcome, his rulings on what they can and can't do should purely be based on the rules (first) and the way RL world works (second).
I consider not letting players do what they want to do and what their characters are perfectly capable of doing because of reasons like "your alignment does not allow that" or "no PvP at my table" to be an extremely suboptimal GMing choice, since it ruins the feeling of the IC world being alive; and also severely limits your roleplaying experiences (going with the aforementioned examples, in the first case, your characters will never change alignment on their own volition, in the second, you'll never know how the runner will react to killing his own teammate [and being left alone with the opposition]).

That's all fine and dandy when you are playing with adults that understand that it is just a game and a game where "friends" might shoot you in the back.
When you are playing with people that can hold a grudge for ten years, because "he killed my 15th level half-golem/half-dragon-half-celestial barbarian/fighter/sorcerer" then you start enforcing this kind of rule.

I agree with the above.

I still know a guy that still resents me for killing off a AD&D character 10 years ago. He was doing something stupid and I let his level 3 guy pay the price.

Apparently this guy had only played RPGs with Mommy and Daddy who never killed any PCs, ever, no matter what.




Hey, when you need a body to fill a chair, your standards take a hit.

In my group, the gun physad blew edge on a longburst from an assault rifle. He got just enough net successes to cause damage (which given the correct armor was around 20, so he did about 28 boxes of damage, which still plastered the Yama king even after it spent edge). The Yama king was disrupted, and the guy's PC was considered a great hero by the Triads.

Silly Yama King should have edged the defense roll instead. : )

Why am I playing with people like that, again?

The thing that always blows my mind about the Yama King (or any other big bad spirit) threads is that I've never found the Yama King to be unbeatable. It's dangerous as hell, but it's not really any more dangerous than any other powerful opponent on a rooftop.

Why? Two reasons.

The first is that players always seem to pack a variety of problem-solving equipment, such as APDS, or a Physad with wangtastic hand to hand abilities, or Filtering, or a couple of spirits to drop the thing's defense pools before one of the prior tools is applied. In the specific case of the Yama King, the problem solving method was APDS in a sniper rifle and a physad with wangtastic hand to hand abilties.

The second is that in the specific case of the Yama King, the most dangerous thing about him ISN'T his powers. It's that you're on a building, and he can throw you off of it. I killed a player that way.

You obviously aren't, because you're perfect. But some other people just don't like PvP at their table, and there's nothing wrong with an agreement against it.