See, I would classify that as OR 2 (Low Tech), not OR3 (Manufactured) nor OR5 (Highly Processed). Can a primitive do it with no technology? Yes? Then it is low tech.

You haven't seen a desalination plant have you? Just because it can be done with primitive technology (the sun and a bowl) doesn't mean it is. I mean, seriously. Metal is OR3, and look at what it takes to refine it.

Not all that much different from the desalination plant, is it?

Try a circuit board making machine (OR5 products) to a bottle filling machine (OR2 product).

I have made circuit boards by hand, it does not take high tech equipment to do that. And, I do know what a desalination plant is/does, and I still would not put it above an OR3. I just wouldn't. Sorry. And since Natural Salt has an OR1, I would likely just use OR2, so as not to have an argument with everyonbe who wats to belabour the point. Of course, who has a Spell called Shape Salt in the first place? And what, exactly, are they using it for? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There is a lot of leeway in the chart, but most things will likely fall into the OR 3 range for Building Materials and common items of everyday use. Besides, what differentiates a Simple Plastic (OR2) from an Advanced Plastic (OR3)? To much of a headache to worry about that.

I mean really, what Defines a "Computer" in SR4? A Comlink is a "Computer." A Sensor could be described as having a "Computer" in it. In fact, many of our modern conveniences today have "Computer Chips" in them, but I would define the vast majority of such things as "Electronics" instead of "Computers." In the end, I tend to stick at OR3 unless it is a vehicle or Drone, or it is obviously Natural. After all, you can always claim that the techniques to procduce the things we use now are overcomplicated and high tech. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is true, but my point is, with such weird definitions for what makes one thing OR2 and another OR3 and yet another OR5, it gets murky.

Like, as you said, simple versus complex plastics. Last I checked, plastics were pretty much all the same, but with varying properties, such as flexibility and color.
Similarly what differentiates natural salt from processed salt? (Not that anyone is going to have a Shape [Salt] spell, but it's an easy material to work with, as it is found both naturally and processed).

I thought that rule was only ever suggested for Indirect Combat spells (which used to be called Elemental Manipulation spells in SR3) - the ones that actually warp reality to create an elemental effect / stream / matter which actually travels from mage to target as a ranged attack, has secondary effects, splash damage and can affect targets out of the mage's LoS.

You mentioned stunbolt and powerbolt. Both of these are Direct Combat spells (which were just Combat spells in SR3) which do not travel (and so can be aimed using fibre optics) but just take effect at the target point and only affect things the mage has LoS to (so the mage can use AR to protect friends from AoE damage). These don't even have an optional rule to increase drain by net hits. You could make a house rule to that effect though if you wanted.

Uh.

I think you have that backwards. Indirect Combat spells already have huge drain. The extra drain for direct spells I think was initially supposed to be direct spells' answer to that, but then got taken out and made optional at the last minute when people pointed out that it did not work as intended (previously mentioned inclination towards dual casting, etc)

My point is that the way to fix problems with the OR system (and/or the Drain benefit of specialized spells) is not to just make the spells stronger. It is to fix those problems.

Agreed, which is why I tend to default to just OR 3 unless it is otherwise very obvious.

Mea culpa. I knew it was for one kind and not the other.

Is'nt that beside the point?
Its not important, how easily you can make something, but how you did make it.

For reference see the OR increasing mod in War.

Well, seeing as it's an optional rule, we'll most likely make the argument against using it and not add those extra hits to drain. I understand that it's unfair, but when the mage is able to cast a force 4 stunbolt, get 8 hits and knocks a target out, then drain everything away for 0 to herself...that seems a bit OP. Sure, people are going to tell me to just throw things at her that she can't use stunbolt at. And then I'll get chewed out for making her character useless. Not that she doesn't already have the power to perpetually fly, telepathically speak, centering to reduce drain by three points for every spell...

Anyway, I think this answers most of my questions. I'll have to take a look at the OR table and maybe increase the materials that she's finding.

Just to clear something out: You cannot cast a force 4 stunbolt with 8 hits. You have to overcast it on force 8 and risk physical drain if you want to get 8 hits. I think you meant "cause 8 points of damage".

Actually, it is not beside the point. If you can have 2 objects of the same thing, made by completely different means, one low tech, and the other high tech, then you will have two objects with 2 different OR Thresholds. This creates a disconnect in the table. Salt (As Draco18s pointed out) is the best example of that. One pile of Salt could be OR1, and the other could be as high as OR5. Yet, both are Salt. So, Which is which?

In War, you can add up to +2 OR for OVERPORCESSING the item. Not sure I like that, But it is an option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

You could spend Edge on the Spellcasting Test and still get 8 Net Successes on a F4 spell.

That aside, I don't know why this is so bad and a sniper rifle isn't. There's a line from one of the Dresden Files books that a supernatural merc says to the mage protaganist - it's something like "All the power in the world won't protect you from the bullet of a sniper rifle a mile away."

And yet, if you shoot that same target with a Light Pistol (4 DV) and get 8 net hits and kill the target, and the shooter takes no drain (Because there is none), why would that NOT ALSO be overpowered?

EDIT: Neraph beat me to it, though in a different way.

Your mage seems pretty experienced, with 3 Initiations and all. She SHOULD be doing what you claim she is doing. If you are unwilling to take the steps to control magic, as they are described in the books, then I'm not really sure how to help. Mages are powerful, but not all that difficult to control. *shrug*

I’m not an native english speaker, but reading your posts again you seem to first argue you should take the lowest possible manufacturing method for determining the OR.

Then after my post, you seem to agree with me.
It’s not the lowest possible manufacturing method, but the actually used manufacturing method.

*confused*

This is why you don't use said methods all the time, but just once every while. So that every character involved gets his or her chance to shine in the spotlight for a bit. If you get chewed out for that, it sounds like someone has a craving for the limelight a bit too much.

Not the lowest, no. I tend to just use OR 3, unless it would make sense to use something different. My (and Draco18s) example of the Salt is a interesting one, because as a Caster you do not KNOW what the OR of that Salt is, and it could be OR1 or OR5. There should never be any doubt what the OR of somethjing is, and yet that doubt creeps in all the time. A Katana made by Hand would be OR2, and yet a Katana made by the newest techniques could be as High as OR 7. So, which is it for which one when they are functionally and visualy identical? The Fact that it could be either is disturbing. As a GM, in this instance, It might become a Plot point to pursue, and could be interesting. But I have often seen arguments on this very subject, when people disagree upon where an item should be placed on the table. Simply because they cannot agree upon the manufacturing techniques used to create the item in question. *shrug*

In the case of the Circuit Board example you and I touched upon. Crafting one by hand has a different OR than one made in a High Tech Automated facility. But you cannot really tell which is which (well, that is not exactly true, the hand made one was of higher quality and had better tolerances than the manufactured ones because the workmanship was very meticulous and careful, with very precisde Solder work, where the manufactured one was more shoddy, with solder work that would never have passed a high schoiol quality examination... But that is beside the point). Electronics is Electronics. Does it really matter if one was made by hand and the other was made by industrial manufacturing practices? In Shadowrun it does. And this opens up all kinds of Potential Argument.

No worries though, it is an interesting disucssion... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Precisely. Cognitive dissonance.

(Reiterating house rule)

And if (by RAW, rather than "OR3 unless") all metallic objects are OR3 (or higher) then it would make sense that Shape [Metal] would be designed with those kinds of limitations, and as such be subject to a lower threshold than Shape [Stuff]. Same for spells like Wreck [Drone] over Powerbolt. Both are functionally identical, however they take the same level of force to have a chance to effect the object, the only difference is the 1 DV less drain (which is largely meaningless).

By allowing restricted spells to have a lower threshold, it opens them up as viable options for mages (Wreck [Drones] is great for that Magic 4 mage and worth the 3 karma to learn over Powerbolt, and although Powerbolt has a wider range of applications, the mage would never want to overcast it to take out a drone! Besides, all those other applications he's already covering with Stunbolt)

It is an interesting House Rule. Probably tougfh to remember or keep track of though. Don't know.

Not any more than keeping track of which spells you have fetishes for. I added notes to my excel sheet that gave me the bonus dice listing ("+2 spellcasting (mentor), +2 drain (fetish)").

I guess... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I do the note thing too, and I still, on occasion, forget things in the heat of the moment. *shrug*

I have too. I once rolled damage resist (with edge) against a grenade and forgot my armor. Next session I realized it, as I counted how many dice I rolled and went "waitaminute" and rolled the remaining dice (after conferring with the group) and had exploding 6s up the wazzoo. Went from "surviving the grenade" to "taking no damage."

My problem isn't her getting a good roll. It's that it's silent, it's not detectable by mundane means, and she can roll away the drain to nothing almost all the time, so she has no draw-backs to it. Sure, if there's a mage around, they'll assens the hell out of her and she can't do anything about that. But I don't throw mages at them all that often, because magic is supposed to still be a rare thing.

And her three initiate grades are all because I allow the Karma build system. I shouldn't, but I do because I like how you cna get a much better spread of skills and abilities in your character then BP. It gives you more options at the cost of being specialized. The player just knew EXACTLY what he wanted when he made the character. He wanted a flying, telepathic mage that had Dragon as his mentor spirit. He has crap for a lot of those skills, I'm sure. But he's initiated three times, with groups and ordeals.