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UmaroVI
post Aug 19 2011, 09:23 PM
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Also, Redjack, can you explain how Swap works, exactly? Thanks.

Here's a much more likely explanation: the majority of people who have clear, complete, and up-to-date understandings of how computer systems and hacking work IRL are of above-average intelligence and are good at figuring out poorly-explained things. Thus they are more likely to be able to grasp whatever set of matrix rules your group uses faster.
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Redjack
post Aug 19 2011, 09:39 PM
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By Swap, do you mean "ALTER/SWAP ICON (SYSTEM)"Sr4a pg228?
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 19 2011, 09:42 PM
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I hope so, the only other swap I can think of is NSFW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Redjack
post Aug 19 2011, 10:09 PM
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So, if you imagine the matrix as a sculptured, virtual environment, then everything you see is either fluff or a representation of something. ALTER/SWAP ICON action allows you to change details about your persona (the representation of you), your programs, files etc.

In example: I enter a sculptured node. The node itself is that of an medieval inn. A barkeep stands behind the bar taking orders while a maiden walks around cleaning tables. Two men sit talking near at a table near the entrance. The wall behind the bar is lined with wine bottles. In order to fit into the node's sculpture, I might want to appear as a knight of old, using ALTER/SWAP ICON on my persona. My shining armor is fluff, simply a part of my personal. I ALTER/SWAP ICON my attack program to the representation of a sword and on my armor program to appear as my shield. (conversely, both of them could just be part of my persona. Matrix Perception will be required to determine the difference).

Example #2: I enter a node that looks like the receptionist station at an office. I have hacked the node and have administrative rights. There is a sign in book where everyone signs in before being allowed on. Matrix perception tells me that the sign in book is part of the node security. With my admin access, I ALTER/SWAP ICON the book to look like a file folder, move it aside, and use my edit program to whip up a program to catch all logons and record them before passing them on to the actual security program.

These are just two off the top of my head.
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CanRay
post Aug 19 2011, 10:47 PM
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And if you're in a sculpted node that's based on a Bunraku Parlor, you're beating programs to death with a purple dildo the size of a troll's forearm.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 19 2011, 10:57 PM
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I mean the echo, Swap, sorry.
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Redjack
post Aug 19 2011, 11:18 PM
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One of the few errata'd items:
QUOTE (Unwired Errata @ v1.0)
p. 147 Swap
Change the  first sentence to read:
“Swap reduces the sustaining modifier when threading a Complex Form by one.”
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UmaroVI
post Aug 20 2011, 12:01 AM
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What I'm getting at is that the errata leaves it extremely unclear - you can look up the debates about it, if you want. I probably should have been more clear about this instead of trying to beg the question. Here are several different ways of reading it:

1) Swap reduces the modifier for sustaining an existing complex form by one, but only for the purposes of the specific action of Threading a new complex form. That is, if you thread up CF A, and then maintain it while threading up CF B, you take only a -1 on the roll to thread up CF B, not a -2. If you then do something that is not threading or using the CFs, you take a -4.

2) Swap reduces the penalty for sustaining a complex form by 1 for all actions.

A) Swap reduces whatever penalty it applies to by 1 per CF, so if 2 CFs are sustained, it reduces the penalty from -2-2 to -1-1.

B) Swap reduces whatever penalty it applies to by 1 total, so if 2 CFs are sustained, it reduces the penalty from -4 to -3.

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PeteThe1
post Aug 20 2011, 12:04 AM
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Part of the problem with the Matrix, complicates it, is that they on one hand want to be technical and accurate, but on the other hand make it fun and adventurous and dangerous and moving at game speeds. Real hacking just isn't that. Its hours and days of trial and error and coding, and not particularly risky compared to a car chase or firefight, and certainly not as entertaining to play at. "For this run, I'll spend the next week at a keyboard, setting up a botnet to DDOS SK, then vandalize their public nodes with naughty pictures of Lofwyr and some sheep." Good times. Long and tedious, even if the end results are amusing, but if thats what hackers did all the time, they'd have NO players at all. So the various writers spice hackers up. A lot. Great, now they're much more suitable to be PCs, but any sense of realism, or even 'making sense' has gone out the window. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Another thing is that all the other roles we've got so many role models to draw upon, picture ourselves as, to really get into character and enjoy the adventure. Samurai replaying The Expendables or Jackie Chan movies. Riggers drawing on The Transporter, Bullit, or The Dukes Of Hazzard (TV yes, movie no, CAS riggers FTW). Faces pulling out stuff they saw on Burn Notice. But hackers get, what, Hackers? Johnny Mnemonic? Or go the realism route and play as Bill Gates. Tailored armored turtleneck sweaters? Woohoo.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 20 2011, 12:06 AM
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I happen to be a computer science student, and I can understand the rules. But I don't think they're good rules. I could go for an extensive list of things I think are wrong, but that would just be a very long rant.
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Redjack
post Aug 20 2011, 12:18 AM
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QUOTE (Redjack @ Aug 19 2011, 06:18 PM) *
One of the few errata'd items:
QUOTE (Unwired Errata @ v1.0)
p. 147 Swap
Change the  first sentence to read:
“Swap reduces the sustaining modifier when threading a Complex Form by one.”

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 19 2011, 07:01 PM) *
1) Swap reduces the modifier for sustaining an existing complex form by one, but only for the purposes of the specific action of Threading a new complex form. That is, if you thread up CF A, and then maintain it while threading up CF B, you take only a -1 on the roll to thread up CF B, not a -2. If you then do something that is not threading or using the CFs, you take a -4.
The quote does not list any restrictions like "but only for the purposes of the specific action of Threading a new complex form"

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 19 2011, 07:01 PM) *
A) Swap reduces whatever penalty it applies to by 1 per CF, so if 2 CFs are sustained, it reduces the penalty from -2-2 to -1-1.
The quote says "a Complex Form" not "all Complex Forms"

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 19 2011, 07:01 PM) *
B) Swap reduces whatever penalty it applies to by 1 total, so if 2 CFs are sustained, it reduces the penalty from -4 to -3.
This matches the rule as written.
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CrowOfPyke
post Aug 20 2011, 12:22 AM
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I'd like to see 5th Edition Shadowrun in a few years, sure. There are still major flaws in the system that have been there since 1st edition that I'd like to see fixed. What flaws? I will answer with my opinions:

-Magic is still way overpowered. If you aren't a magic user user you cannot resist spells without some "funkiness" to help you. This is a huge flaw in the magic system.
-Anyone can be a hacker, your Logic attribute score doesn't matter. Anyone with a good commlink and $$$ to buy rating=6 programs can be a hacker. Seems kinda... lame.
-Riggers are non-interactive and rarely, if ever, truly threatened. "I stay so far away that I cannot be attacked... or traced... or ever harmed really. My character is uber but I never face danger." LAME.
-Troll. Max strength and body. Bioware out wazzu. Vindicator Assault Cannon. Does tons and tons of damage, and literally rolls a KFC bucket of dice to resist damage making it nigh invulnerable. Possible in 1st edition, still possible now. Cheeseburger. And fries. With gravy.

I guess I want Shadowrun to become a more balanced game systematically. And yes, these are my opinions, and opinions only. Still a great game for roleplaying and having stupid amounts of fun with!!


I will add this: Do NOT ever make Shadowrun a D20 based game. It is fine D6 based game.
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Sengir
post Aug 20 2011, 12:30 AM
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QUOTE (Redjack @ Aug 19 2011, 09:23 PM) *
My point was a generalization based upon my experience: The more technical the gamer is in real life, the better grasp they tend to have on the hacking rules.

From my experience I can only agree, although it's certainly not because the way the matrix works is so similar to real-life networking.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 20 2011, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE (Redjack @ Aug 19 2011, 08:18 PM) *
The quote does not list any restrictions like "but only for the purposes of the specific action of Threading a new complex form"

The quote says "a Complex Form" not "all Complex Forms"

This matches the rule as written.


I think you're automatically parsing it the way you already "know" it works. The argument for 1 is:

You thread a complex form, then you sustain it. You are not "threading it" after it has already been made; you are just sustaining an already-threaded form. If it means 2, it would say "reduces the sustaining modifier for maintaining threaded complex forms by 1." What it DOES say is "reduces the sustaining modifier when threading a complex form." As in, "when threading a complex form" is the situation when the sustaining modifier is reduced.

If it said "reduces the sustaining modifier by 1 when shooting a gun" or "when using Hacking on the Fly" or "when making Perception checks" it would be clear what it meant.

For A vs. B I direct you to the countless threads arguing about that. It isn't clear at all, otherwise people wouldn't have differing opinions about it!
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 20 2011, 12:53 AM
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QUOTE (CrowOfPyke @ Aug 20 2011, 01:22 AM) *
-Riggers are non-interactive and rarely, if ever, truly threatened. "I stay so far away that I cannot be attacked... or traced... or ever harmed really. My character is uber but I never face danger." LAME.


Personally, I think that rigger-players could easily get emotionally invested in their drones, to the point where they care nearly as much about damage to their drones as a sammie does about damage to the sammie. Once you start modding drones, they become really expensive to replace. And there's biofeedback of course.
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Redjack
post Aug 20 2011, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 19 2011, 07:34 PM) *
I think you're automatically parsing it the way you already "know" it works.
This is Dumpshock and even for shit that is obvious, people will argue about it.
You asked. I answered. Take it or leave it. Null sheen to me either way, Chummer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Tanegar
post Aug 20 2011, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 19 2011, 05:47 PM) *
And if you're in a sculpted node that's based on a Bunraku Parlor, you're beating programs to death with a purple dildo the size of a troll's forearm.

Now I have a burning urge to create a hacker with a day job as a porn star, who themes all his (her?) program icons as sex toys.
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CanRay
post Aug 20 2011, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 19 2011, 05:47 PM) *
And if you're in a sculpted node that's based on a Bunraku Parlor, you're beating programs to death with a purple dildo the size of a troll's forearm.
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Aug 19 2011, 08:52 PM) *
Now I have a burning urge to create a hacker with a day job as a porn star, who themes all his (her?) program icons as sex toys.
*Stands Heroically* My work here is done.

*Walks off into the sunset, wearing chaps with no pants*
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sunnyside
post Aug 20 2011, 03:03 AM
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Thanks for the info. At least there aren't any rumors about anything imminent.

QUOTE (TheOOB @ Aug 19 2011, 01:58 AM) *
I can RP while I play monopoly if I want.


I'll remember that quip (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

QUOTE (PeteThe1 @ Aug 19 2011, 08:04 PM) *
Part of the problem with the Matrix, complicates it, is that they on one hand want to be technical and accurate,


Where did you get that idea? They want to capture some of the haxxor flavor, but technical and accurate are not words I've heard used to descirbe the system before. They threw those out for fun, and, as this is an RPG, I endorse that.

QUOTE
But hackers get, what, Hackers? Johnny Mnemonic? Or go the realism route and play as Bill Gates. Tailored armored turtleneck sweaters? Woohoo.


Oh lordy. Use the search function to findyourself some good cyberpunk fiction (heck some of the SR novels).

Hmmm sounds like you're looking for movies. Lemmi see, I suggest watching

Swordfish
Tron (hey sculpting)
mmmayybe the Matrix
Cowboy Bebop (an anime I endorse. Actually very very Shadowrunish)
Ghost in the Shell Seriously, watch this now. And the TV spin offs.





My issue with the matrix is that you really can get lost in the weeds if you get a couple rules lawyers together. And as you add rules it starts taking longer. My game uses the core rulebook rules only with a little spackle to hold them together, relatively straightforward design in the systems I put together, and GM glares if the players start thinking about getting fancier. I don't know if I'd say that's the best way, but it does result in hacking taking very little game time, so I think that's quite worth it.

While I think the matrix is the area most improved over 3rd ed, it's also the area I'd like to see worked on the most.

QUOTE (CrowOfPyke @ Aug 19 2011, 08:22 PM) *
-Riggers are non-interactive and rarely, if ever, truly threatened. "I stay so far away that I cannot be attacked... or traced... or ever harmed really. My character is uber but I never face danger." LAME.


Between how common RF blocking stuff and spiders are I've never found this to be a problem. Too often a bunker rigger would find themselves cut off from the action.

QUOTE
-Troll. Max strength and body. Bioware out wazzu. Vindicator Assault Cannon. Does tons and tons of damage, and literally rolls a KFC bucket of dice to resist damage making it nigh invulnerable. Possible in 1st edition, still possible now. Cheeseburger. And fries. With gravy.


Really? Where was the anti magic bioware? I seem to have missed it. One thing I quite like about SR is that, because of the glass cannon nature of players if they get hit with the wrong sort of thing, things sort of balance out without having to be in any way balanced the way other RPGs have to work to be.

QUOTE
I will add this: Do NOT ever make Shadowrun a D20 based game. It is fine D6 based game.


I fully concur. There are different ways to sling it. But it creates a different atmosphere and way in which the players interact with the world when you're operating with bell curves instead of flat odds.
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CanRay
post Aug 20 2011, 03:14 AM
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Maybe we can use WEGs D6 system for 5th?
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nylanfs
post Aug 20 2011, 03:15 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 19 2011, 11:42 AM) *
Basically, I want fully-specified characters to fit on only 1-2 pages instead of needing a small booklet per character.

What are you smoking and can I have some?
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CanRay
post Aug 20 2011, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (nylanfs @ Aug 19 2011, 10:15 PM) *
What are you smoking and can I have some?
Puff-puff-pass, seen?
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 20 2011, 04:35 AM
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I wouldn't mind seeing a new edition. 4e has some decent core concepts, but it is like a 1st edition in how many ways it screwed up. The thing is I doubt the things I see as issues would be addressed so I don't really care if no new edition comes. I am surprised one wasn't planned for the awakening, but hey I guess they didn't want to enter the 6th world in style.
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CanRay
post Aug 20 2011, 04:49 AM
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Can you imagine the character creation for the early 6th World?

"Roll to see if you get VITAS? You do? You're dead. Start again."
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Critias
post Aug 20 2011, 04:59 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 19 2011, 10:42 AM) *
Basically, I want fully-specified characters to fit on only 1-2 pages instead of needing a small booklet per character.

1) It really just depends on what you count as "fully specified."

2) Some of that's just the nature of gamers. I've seen characters in many systems, set in many eras, that take page after page of gear with 'em everywhere they go, just like I've seen some that get by with four or five pieces of gear and call it a day. It's a tendency that's only exacerbated in modern day gaming, or post-modern (where gear is smaller, lighter, and/or you can have vehicles to carry even more gear).
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