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Stahlseele
post Sep 19 2011, 01:57 PM
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slightly different question:
do you have to tell the ward to move, or does the ward move automagically with the anchor?
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Traul
post Sep 19 2011, 02:04 PM
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That's the fun part: sometimes the ward moves with the anchor, sometimes it doesn't and the ward collapses. Why? Magic.
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Stahlseele
post Sep 19 2011, 02:28 PM
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Wards. You can't explain that!
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 19 2011, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Sep 18 2011, 09:21 PM) *
Speak for yourself! As I've always told people when they bring up the point that they don't like the idea of anchor points and wards moving together...

How do you reconcile this with the rotation of the earth, or the warding of rooms with, say, doors that swivel outward or inward, or skyscrapers, which flex and move in relation to their base anchor point whenever there's wind?

I understand the resistance to warded vehicles, but it's necessary for two major reasons:

1) Large craft such as aircraft carriers or cruise ships would be unable to secure area via wards, even though reasonably one can ward a room inside a ship, because the "vehicle" is moving.
2) It's necessary to prevent utter dominance of spirits in any kind of military combat - spirits may manifest within any craft be it a suborbital or a tank, and down it with a trivial expenditure of powers, unless there is a mage defending each an every military vehicle.

I would suggest setting a lower limit on the Body of any vehicle to be warded, however, as well as the restriction on being enclosed.


You do know that the Accident Power works without the Spirit entering a Vehicle, Right? And the theoretical Ward inside does bupkiss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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CanRay
post Sep 19 2011, 04:17 PM
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OK, so you got the shell of the vehicle warded against Accident. Can't have the engine flood for no reason.

Too bad there's so many things that can go wrong with the road, other cars, pedestrians, the various advertising/surveillance blimp-drones flying around, the beer truck you're driving behind opening up and spilling it's contents right in front of you...

...

OH THE METAHUMANITY!!!
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LurkerOutThere
post Sep 19 2011, 04:18 PM
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What I really want, what I want more then anythign when fifth edition comes around is a rework of the magic system. I want someone to sit down from top to bottom and think up how the system works, and make it consistatn throughout even if only according to it's own rules. Then i want them to think of what sort of implications the system will have and take nothign for granted.

Personally the notion that a ward is good to move so long as it's moving uniformly is garbage, it can either move or it can't.
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Adarael
post Sep 19 2011, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 19 2011, 08:01 AM) *
You do know that the Accident Power works without the Spirit entering a Vehicle, Right? And the theoretical Ward inside does bupkiss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Except as far as I recall, the accident power has to act upon a victim, not an inanimate object - the power increases the chance of a glitch & critical glitch. Since the object cannot roll dice, it cannot botch, only the pilot. The pilot - or pilot software - is inside the ward, and therefore is protected by the ward.

Even if that's not the case, the accident power is shit for downing planes. Increase the chances of a botch when a pilot has a halfway decent amount of dice and a copilot? Pfeh. Manifest in cockpit, engulf pilots, laugh all the way down!
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Mardrax
post Sep 19 2011, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 19 2011, 06:18 PM) *
Personally the notion that a ward is good to move so long as it's moving uniformly is garbage, it can either move or it can't.

A ward is anchored to an object inside the ward. If this object moves, without the entire warded area moving in tandem with it, the ward breaks down.
It's simple enough, really. Just like an umbrella breaks to bits when the center pole moves in another direction than its spokes, so does a ward. Move the whole though, and you'll stay high, dry, and protected from any rain that doesn't turn to big magical hailstones.

QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 19 2011, 01:37 PM) *
Where is the anchor then?

It's the cupholder that sits where the gearknob used to, back when stick-shift was still around to drive certain people places, and other people mad. Or the middle headrest, or the ashtray, or the babyseat. Does it really matter?
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Traul
post Sep 19 2011, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Sep 19 2011, 05:35 PM) *
A ward is anchored to an object inside the ward. If this object moves, without the entire warded area moving in tandem with it, the ward breaks down.
It's simple enough, really.

No it's not. What makes the ward sometimes move with its anchor, sometimes not?
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UmaroVI
post Sep 19 2011, 05:39 PM
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Consider the difference between: I am warding this vehicle, binding the ward to a widget bolted to the vehicle, and I am warding this vehicle, binding the ward to a rock that I throw in the trunk.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 19 2011, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Sep 19 2011, 09:32 AM) *
Except as far as I recall, the accident power has to act upon a victim, not an inanimate object - the power increases the chance of a glitch & critical glitch. Since the object cannot roll dice, it cannot botch, only the pilot. The pilot - or pilot software - is inside the ward, and therefore is protected by the ward.

Even if that's not the case, the accident power is shit for downing planes. Increase the chances of a botch when a pilot has a halfway decent amount of dice and a copilot? Pfeh. Manifest in cockpit, engulf pilots, laugh all the way down!


Read it again. Forces a Crash Test with a Penalty equal to the Force of the Spirit. Any Non-Piloted Drone immediately crashes if the Spirit is Force 3 or so, since the pilot will no longer be able to generate the necessary Hits Threshold (3) at that point. At Force 6, even a Piloted Vehicle may have issues. Of course, Living Pilots have Edge.
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Mardrax
post Sep 19 2011, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Sep 19 2011, 07:39 PM) *
Consider the difference between: I am warding this vehicle, binding the ward to a widget bolted to the vehicle, and I am warding this vehicle, binding the ward to a rock that I throw in the trunk.

The former makes the ward function until someone undoes the bolt, the latter makes it function until the vehicle acc/decelerates in any direction and the rock starts rolling around, barring the rock in the car with really shaggy carpeting in the trunk, which will just need higher acceleration to break the ward.

QUOTE (Traul @ Sep 19 2011, 06:47 PM) *
No it's not. What makes the ward sometimes move with its anchor, sometimes not?

Physics. When the anchor is in (and preferably firmly attached to) the warded object, which then proceeds to move, the anchor moves in tandem with the object, so the ward stays in place. It's not rocket science, although I'm starting to picture Bill O' Reily's face here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 19 2011, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Sep 19 2011, 10:39 AM) *
Consider the difference between: I am warding this vehicle, binding the ward to a widget bolted to the vehicle, and I am warding this vehicle, binding the ward to a rock that I throw in the trunk.


The Rock can move and the Bolted Widget cannot. If the rock moves more than a few centimeters (likely if it is loose in the trunk), the ward goes away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do I get a Cookie?
Damn: Mardrax got there first... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Mardrax
post Sep 19 2011, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 19 2011, 08:06 PM) *
Do I get a Cookie?
Damn: Mardrax got there first... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Don't worry there TJ, if I get a cookie, you can have half. You'll get the half with most chocolate chips even!
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Stahlseele
post Sep 19 2011, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Sep 19 2011, 08:05 PM) *
I'm starting to picture Bill O' Reily's face here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

got you beat there:
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 19 2011, 04:28 PM) *

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 19 2011, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Sep 19 2011, 11:14 AM) *
Don't worry there TJ, if I get a cookie, you can have half. You'll get the half with most chocolate chips even!


Oooh.... Chocolate. Yum... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mardrax
post Sep 19 2011, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 19 2011, 08:21 PM) *
got you beat there:

Ah, crud!
Would you like a share of the cookie too?
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Stahlseele
post Sep 19 2011, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Sep 19 2011, 08:27 PM) *
Ah, crud!
Would you like a share of the cookie too?

I can explain that!
Also, no, thank you, you and TJ can have the cookie ^^
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Adarael
post Sep 19 2011, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 19 2011, 10:01 AM) *
Read it again. Forces a Crash Test with a Penalty equal to the Force of the Spirit. Any Non-Piloted Drone immediately crashes if the Spirit is Force 3 or so, since the pilot will no longer be able to generate the necessary Hits Threshold (3) at that point. At Force 6, even a Piloted Vehicle may have issues. Of course, Living Pilots have Edge.


I can't "read it again", since I don't have my book at work.

Non-piloted drones statistically will crash 1/3rd of the time they're forced to make "very easy" vehicle tests on a semi-crowded street ANYWAY. Logic REALLY suggests any drone should have a rating 3 autosoft installed along with its 3 Pilot rating, because otherwise they cannot take off or land reliably on their own.

I dunno, even at Force 6, burning people alive is more reliable. A competent pilot - 4 dice in his skill (or 2 with a specialty), 4 Response in his commlink, hot sim + Control Rig, and a handling of 0? He's got 10 dice before accident and 4 dice after it, AND a -1 threshold from being in hot sim. Conversely, he probably has no way to handle a Force 6 spirit murdering him in the driver's seat or cockpit.
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Mardrax
post Sep 19 2011, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Sep 19 2011, 08:40 PM) *
I dunno, even at Force 6, burning people alive is more reliable. A competent pilot - 4 dice in his skill (or 2 with a specialty), 4 Response in his commlink, hot sim + Control Rig, and a handling of 0? He's got 10 dice before accident, AND a -1 threshold from being in hot sim. Conversely, he probably has no way to handle a Force 6 spirit murdering him in the driver's seat or cockpit.

Tag the pilot with Fear, before Accidenting him off his ejection seat for bonus points.
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Adarael
post Sep 19 2011, 06:48 PM
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Now that's a fine combo indeed!
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Saint Hallow
post Sep 19 2011, 06:56 PM
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If you want to stop Accident, why don't you just summon a spirit & have it use it's Guard power?
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onlyghostdancesw...
post Sep 19 2011, 07:02 PM
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thank you for the many opinions here; they are pretty much what we surmised in our debate. We both agree that the ward can be made in the vehicle but the key to our issue was the location of the warding (ie is it anchored inside the vehicle etc or would the spirit have to act through the ward if its a field around the vehicle). We decided the spirit could act without dealing with the ward because wards would want to be constructed the easiest way possible ie the interior of the vehicle is much less likely to change its shape/ disposition (think ramming or weapon damage) than the inside of the vehicle would (ala the placement off the widget etc).
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 19 2011, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Sep 19 2011, 11:40 AM) *
I can't "read it again", since I don't have my book at work.

Non-piloted drones statistically will crash 1/3rd of the time they're forced to make "very easy" vehicle tests on a semi-crowded street ANYWAY. Logic REALLY suggests any drone should have a rating 3 autosoft installed along with its 3 Pilot rating, because otherwise they cannot take off or land reliably on their own.

I dunno, even at Force 6, burning people alive is more reliable. A competent pilot - 4 dice in his skill (or 2 with a specialty), 4 Response in his commlink, hot sim + Control Rig, and a handling of 0? He's got 10 dice before accident and 4 dice after it, AND a -1 threshold from being in hot sim. Conversely, he probably has no way to handle a Force 6 spirit murdering him in the driver's seat or cockpit.


4 Dice (Threshold 2) is not likely at all. And, If the Vehicle is warded, the Spirit may never penetrate the ward.
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Bearclaw
post Sep 19 2011, 07:26 PM
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I say you can't ward the inside of a vehicle, then have it move and keep the ward. Here's why:
On the physical plane, the ward is just an invisible wall that magic can't move through without a fight. In the astral, though, it's a solid thing. It is tied in the astral to locations. These astral locations are not part of the vehicle. The ward is also tied to a phsical anchor. So, when the physical anchor moves away from the astral location, the connection is torn and the ward is destroyed.
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