Yes, that's exactly what I said. Oh wait, no it isn't.

Min/maxers abuse the hell out of the rules. The sheer thought of not starting with an Agility of 9 on such a character boggles their mind. Just look at the handful of people bitching about it in this thread. Worse yet are the ones bitching about the number of build points it takes to get it, and how an unaugmented character can't "make up for it" with the same number of points and, somehow, that proves that anyone without a maxed out augmented attribute rating is trash. Or whatever point they're trying to make by saying things like that. I still can't figure it out.

For whatever bizarre reason, they just cannot comprehend the idea that no one is saying that an unaugmented character will meet or beat what an augmented character can do. Instead, they're blathering on about how if they're not min/maxed to the extreme levels that an augmented character can be min/maxed, they're "worthless" and "already dead." Even though that's complete and utter bullshit, especially when an unaugmented character can be only a couple of dice behind them, and how they can very nearly match what a reasonably designed character can do.

And yes, the concept for such a character includes the fact that the character is relatively min/maxed while augmented characters may not be. But that's entirely in character for that character concept, because they're trying to prove -- either to themselves or others -- that they can be competitive through hard work, training, equipment, tactics, and sheer smarts. They're effectively the "Batman" of the shadows. It doesn't mean they have the same exact stats, the same exact capabilities, or could necessarily even win if they got into a on-on-one pit fight with their counterparts. But no one has said they should, except the people yelling at the original poster for the sheer audacity of wanting to create an interesting character archetype -- an archetype that is included in the gameworld and the rules regardless of how badly she's designed.

Not even close.

Every build that can be done by an unagumented mundane, can be done better via augmentation.

Even if you're going for a low-attribute generalist: because of the attribute cap, both the augmented and unaugmented character will have the same base attribute pools. They can buy a whole crapton of skills. The augmented character, however, can afford an IP booster as well as skillwires, increasing the amount of skills he potentially has access to.

Which is what I said, Cain, if not in the same verbiage. Cyber always provides an Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Again, please stop bolding and italicising my name. It feels outright accusatory.

Second, you said it provides a significant edge to min/maxers. As I demonstrated, that's not the case. This build isn't "significantly" better, it's just better.

Min-Maxers get significantly more bang for their buck if they Min-Max their Cyber. Most do, you know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Man, is she ever. The sad thing about the weapon specialist is that if they had concentrated on the armorer/tech wiz aspect rather than giving her a grab bag of ineffective combat skills they could have had a playable concept. Basically, as an unaugmented character the more you can do to avoid opposed rolls while doing your job, the better. I am biased against unaugmented combat specialists because they are literally involved in an arm's race that has potentially deadly consequences for losing. By contrast being the team skill monkey and buying up the oddball skills nobody else wants to take and having a big grab bag of contacts and weird gear to parcel out isn't nearly as demanding a role. There isn't much glamour in it, but the thresholds you need to hit are generally nice and predictable and when you screw up it usually just means the job takes a bit longer rather than get you shot in the face.

Sad thing is, that role sounds more like a Contact than a player.

Contacts are sometimes too busy to return calls though. That's a problem when you need a bomb disarmed, preferably yesterday.

Good luck with that one. He does the same to me, including adding capital letters where they don't belong, despite my requesting otherwise. I think he does it just to piss people off.

I'm sure it's just a habit folks. No need to be spiteful about it.

No, it's very much intentional.

So basically, to have an unaugmented character that's not too weak to cause problems, only the unaugmented PC can be min/maxed?
(Problems with creating challenges not too dangerous to the unaugmented character, but challenging to the augmented characters.)

Taking augmentations isn't munchkinry nor min/maxing, not by default. The question is: can an unaugmented character keep up with reasonable augmented and magical builds? Maybe, but it's very hard, and it's hardest in combat niches.

Of course, this too is better done by an augmented character, since there's so many ways to boost attributes and skill categories with ware. Cerebral Boosters, PuSHeD, neocortical nanites, limbic nanites, Encephalons, whatever that + to intuition linked skills geneware is ...

Nope. But someone creating an unaugmented character does need to work harder to make them competitive. Cyberware is cheap and easy. Coming up with something to challenge it isn't.


No one to my knowledge was arguing that at all. In fact, that is exactly what most people in the thread have been saying.

It's the posters who have been saying asinine things like unaugmented characters are "worthless" and "as good as dead" (I don't remember the exact phrases they were using) that I've been replying to for the most part. They're also the same ones who keep pointing to overly min/maxed characters as an excuse for it, when most real characters are anything but. At least in my personal experience.

What I really don't get are the people who keep saying "augmentation or magic can do ____ better." No one has ever said anything to oppose that statement.

Threads like these make me so glad I don't have a bunch of rules lawyers sitting at my table.

Once you get them drunk, the rules lawyers are harmless...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif) About 40 will do. Higher if you're in a hurry.

Oh, we have plans for them. Walks away muttering about drop kicking their ass out of the car after a 40 mile drive up north...

They might starve to death arguing about the best way to get home.

(Some say that's a bug, some say that's a feature...)

Seems to me that a mundane, non-cybered character is very plausible; the only thing holding him up is Initiative. I dislike 4ed initiative anyway and slightly modified it for my own games a long time ago. But even working within RAW, there are drugs for boosting initiative.

This thread has gotten me thinking about designing such a character: The Chemist aka. "The Candyman." He makes designer drugs, enjoys them himself. He is mundane and has a sensitive system. Saddened by being unable to take advantage of the best of recreational electronics, he long ago turned to chemicals. His knowledge of chemistry led him to not only drugs, but explosives. He would have taken high levels of stealth (in order to steal his material components and research). He has charisma born of a need to broker his drug deals.

Basically, this person can be a face, your demo guy, your medic and could function with a team in its stealthier endeavors. If a GM provides any lattitude, he would allow Mr. Candyman to have a goal of creating tailored drugs to fit a player's needs (Ie. reducing the chances and/or effects of addiction of his own creations.) The character isn't going to be spending tons of money on cyber, so he can invest that money on his labs and research. I personally think this could be quite a fun character to play and would truly be someone different than jsut another mage, or sammy.

I also guess my philosophy about characters is different than some. You allow the player to create a character they are interested in playing and then you design the adventures around them, not over-doing the areas they are deficient in. Yes, sometimes you go there to make them feel the heat, to keep them on their toes and to make things interesting. But you never put them into situations that they are completely unequipped to handle. What is the point of that? Where is the fun? Not every mission requires a high level commando team. If you enjoy every mission being a dragon hunt, great! Design those characters and hopefully you have a GM that caters to their builds. If you enjoy exploring other aspects of the SR universe, then create those characters and hopefully your GM will provide you an arena to explore those aspects.

What is a realistic/ viable character is going to vary dramatically from table to table.

Vlad

Awesoem Concept, Vladski... And well stated...

Vlad: I don't think that's unusual. The issue I see is in making the mundane combat capable with regards to the rest of the team (which was the impression I got from the OP). Balancing the chatacter with opponents seems easy. If everyone at tbhe table had the same limitations it would be easy to do as a table. But without knowing the other characters I can't say the charcter can be on equal footing with them when they have access to more efficient things to spend BP on.

Well, to go back to the original post:


(emphasis mine)

So sure, a Face, Rigger or Hacker is doable, we've established that. But combat is precisely the hardest.
Drugs can somewhat solve your IP problems (under the common Dumpshock estimation of 2 IP being right for a character not particularly aimed at combat, who doesn't want to be bad at it). But to be better that a gangster on drugs (aren't they all?), you'd either need to do extreme point squeezing or use a lot of Edge.
So it comes down to the Edge refresh rate: if you refresh Edge entirely each session of a multi-session mission, it can work out well. But that's often thought to be excessive refreshing, and I think most groups do one complete refresh per mission, with perhaps one point per session in between. Then even 8 Edge isn't all that much; you need to choose carefully what to spend it on.

So, can it work? Well, as a dedicated combat character, I think you'll be disappointed. There's a good chance the other PCs will be just as good at combat by spending a few points on augmentations, and the rest on some primary niche. And any other primary combat characters will be more powerful than you, because anything you do to be powerful, they can do more efficiently.

As a character who doesn't want to be useless in combat, but isn't built as primary combatant, it can work, but it's not easy. To feel like a useful part of the group, you're best of taking some other niche and taking basic combat competencies through drugs, edge and specializing in one type of gun.

The best niches, as has been pointed out, are those where you don't get a lot of opposed rolls, particularly not against augmented opponents. Medic, chemist, demolitions, Face, hacker, rigger can all work, because even when they do opposed rolls, the difference with a non-min/maxed character will be surmountable.
(Most of the time pornomancy is overkill; Cha 7 + Influence 4 + Specialization should be sufficient against a vast majority of NPCs who didn't specialize in social conflict. I think the hacking difficulties weren't based on stacking vast amounts of implants that were introduced later, so your unaugmented character would face tough but fair odds. Riggers are a bit tougher, but delegating to pilots and autosofts helps. Medics, chemists and demolition men don't face a lot of opposed rolls.)

But in the end, you will be less powerful. Augmentation is the most efficient route to power, so refusing it sets you back a lot.

Yes, there's always a bare minimum of augmentation that should be considered. We've gone over that roughly a billion times in this thread already. But the thing with techies is that there's not terribly many drawbacks for throwing merely adequate dice instead of incredible dice and so they're one of the few archetypes that can cover stuff for the team without dipping into their gear cap very much-- they could use a couple of shops and the general purpose stuff most runners need, but that's about it. It makes them pretty well suited to being the guy who takes one for the team and pays for the pimped out Eurocar or a Trustfund and Facility combo.

Short:
A guy that starts with no ware and magic?
Possible and viable if you do not have a very combat focused group. (Since the best option is to become a jack-of-many-trades it is better to use Karma gen)

Staying like that for more than a couple of runs?
Possible too, but you will turn slowly into a sidekick. (The other runners will pick up secondary skills, too and due to their high attributes and boni they will outshine you pritty fast)

Jack of all trades definitely isn't the best shot. Before Augmentation and Unwired hit the best path was definitely a hacker who dabbled in drone herding. There's now more reasons to get wired up than ever thanks to the introduction of stuff like Encephalons and Simsense Boosters but it's possible to get by without them, particularly if your GM is going BBB only. I'd go so far as to say that being unaugmented means that having a marked lack of breadth is your default state.