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Bigity
post Oct 13 2011, 02:12 AM
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I appreciate the offer and will keep it in mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Until then, I'll keep re-reading the sourcebooks starting with 1st edition moving up.
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CanRay
post Oct 13 2011, 02:18 AM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 12 2011, 08:00 PM) *
Yea, being able to set aside a set time is my problem. My third kid is 4 weeks old Friday (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Kid in the lap while playing with your older ones at the table.

Corrupt 'em all young! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Platinum
post Oct 13 2011, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 12 2011, 09:12 PM) *
I appreciate the offer and will keep it in mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Until then, I'll keep re-reading the sourcebooks starting with 1st edition moving up.



I started a play by email conversation run. That worked pretty well. It allowed us to RP when we had time. It allowed us to do life but move the game along. We were corresponding about 12 messages between us a day. Better than nothing. Don`t forget to read some of the short stories. Dragon talk for instance.
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nezumi
post Oct 13 2011, 01:27 PM
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Lovely third edition ... IMO, they mechanics were just about the best of the Shadowrun line; plenty of granularity, very deadly, space for tactical thought, but not hugely imbalanced in favor of any one class. If you're bringing it back, there are some tweaks I would make, such as to autofire. Check out sr3r for some smart changes (yes, the project is still alive, just veeeeery sloooow. Still, you can pick and choose among great ideas.) Of course, you can run any other mechanics you want, but be aware, the mechanics DO define the world to a large degree.

Regarding the setting, I feel like it was two-fold; firstly, the publisher needed to keep making up new content to keep selling books. Some of their forays were ... less than genius (YotC). Secondly, the real world proved aspects of Shadowrun wrong. SR4 was a good business move, but they certainly could have just updated SR3 if they wanted.

If I were to redo the setting, it would depend on my players. Are they children of the 80s? If so, play up those aspects. If not? I'd play them up more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Don't tie Shadowrun to what the world will actually be like in 2060. This is an alternate timeline, and some stuff just is not available. Things need to be dirty and desperate. Play up the horror-movie aspect, play down the action-movie. Tie it in to the '99%' and banks 'too big to fail'. Make it personal. Give points for style, but make sure the cops bring down the hammer on any runners who get too cocky and stick around for long.
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Zaranthan
post Oct 13 2011, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Platinum @ Oct 12 2011, 06:31 PM) *
<Cool stuff for cool gaming with cool people>

I like this list, and am definitely printing it out and hanging it over my design desk. I do need to ask about a few items, though.

2: magic needs to be nerfed. bring back grounding.
For us kiddies who missed 3E, but agree that magicrun is silly, how did this shut things down? Was it something like WoD's Paradox where too much magic could make the world start twisting you back?

3: change initiative back. If you are not fast or a tank, you are dead. it reflects reality, he who moves/reacts faster goes first and many times (also helps to nerf magic)
4E's initiative pass system seems to work like this already. Are you saying the sam should get his 3 passes before the face gets his 1? While I agree that having a guy who's absolutely essential to the team's success having no combat options aside from finding a good piece of cover and wetting his pants is cool and hilarious, it's not very fun to BE that player from a gamist perspective.

8: undo anything ever Rob Boyle touched in shadowrun (eclipse phase is his sweet spot)
10: get Jim Butcher to write some novels.

Again, for the kids, what are you referring to here? Which mechanics need to be excised?
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Draco18s
post Oct 13 2011, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Oct 13 2011, 12:45 PM) *
2: magic needs to be nerfed. bring back grounding.
For us kiddies who missed 3E, but agree that magicrun is silly, how did this shut things down? Was it something like WoD's Paradox where too much magic could make the world start twisting you back?


Grounding was a metamagic feat that let mages cast spell on material targets from the astral by targetting a dual natured object or critter, ie. a sustaining focus.

Although it actually makes magicrun more silly, not less, a PC mage would summon a F1 spirit, have it materialize next to the enemy, and then Fireball it (killing the enemy).
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Bigity
post Oct 13 2011, 06:06 PM
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Actually it wasn't a metamagic, nor did it work through spirits.

It was just something any caster could do. An active foci let something from the astral plane channel a spell through that foci, 'grounding' it to the physical plane.

You could cast an AOE spell at that focus, it would affect all targets within the area of effect, on the physical plane. The spell had to 'beat' the focus first, then the spell would cast on the physical plane, with the focus as the center. Or you could use a single target only spell, but it would only affect whoever was holding/wearing the focus. Only physical spells worked this way though. I think only combat spells worked this way as well.

So, some mage have a spell lock up that is making you sad? Ground a fireball through his focus and fry him and his buddies standing around him from the astral while your body is safely behind a wall or two.

Basically grounding was the penalty for active foci, not addiction junk. You rocked the spell lock, you took your chances. It was the balance to having spell locks cost 1 karma to bond, using one with a smart mage/shaman around was literally sticking your neck way out there.
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CanRay
post Oct 13 2011, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Oct 13 2011, 11:45 AM) *
10: get Jim Butcher to write some novels.
Again, for the kids, what are you referring to here? Which mechanics need to be excised?
Don't teach you kids to read any longer?

Jim Butcher is a novelist that's put out a few series (But so far nothing for Shadowrun, he wasn't writing when Shadowrun Novels were being put out), one of which, The Dresden Files, is very Shadowrun in feel. Aside from being in Modern Times.

If you look for them, ignore the horrible TV show, just look for the novels. Jim is, literally, counting the days until the IP for TV returns to him so that he can get someone that will do it right. (Honestly, a HOCKEY AND DRUM STICK for magic tools? Did they blow the budget on illicit drugs?).

He also took The Lost Roman Legion (An idea that's been done to death) and Pokemon, combined them together, and made a series full of AWESOME!
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Draco18s
post Oct 13 2011, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 13 2011, 02:06 PM) *
Actually it wasn't a metamagic, nor did it work through spirits.


Ah, I was off. I only know of the mechanic through what I remember reading on the forums.
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Bigity
post Oct 13 2011, 07:31 PM
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No worries. I just happen to be readng through old rulebooks lately (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 13 2011, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 13 2011, 01:31 PM) *
No worries. I just happen to be readng through old rulebooks lately (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Though Technically, you cannot cast a Physical Spell on the Astral Plane (You can only cast Mana based Spells) so the Grounding of Elemental Spells is really right out as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Could be remembering incorrectly (for SR2), though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Platinum
post Oct 13 2011, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 13 2011, 02:41 PM) *
Though Technically, you cannot cast a Physical Spell on the Astral Plane (You can only cast Mana based Spells) so the Grounding of Elemental Spells is really right out as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Could be remembering incorrectly (for SR2), though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


You can ground any physical spell through the focus. They were usually combat spells like hellblast because they have lower drain. If you tried grounding lightning, or acid through you would most likely drop dead. Drain is physical on astral.

[ Spoiler ]
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Platinum
post Oct 13 2011, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Oct 13 2011, 11:45 AM) *
I like this list, and am definitely printing it out and hanging it over my design desk. I do need to ask about a few items, though.

3: change initiative back. If you are not fast or a tank, you are dead. it reflects reality, he who moves/reacts faster goes first and many times (also helps to nerf magic)
4E's initiative pass system seems to work like this already. Are you saying the sam should get his 3 passes before the face gets his 1? While I agree that having a guy who's absolutely essential to the team's success having no combat options aside from finding a good piece of cover and wetting his pants is cool and hilarious, it's not very fun to BE that player from a gamist perspective.


It was annoying to many of the slow players, like a face, but everyone gets their time to shine. The sammie sits and does nothing while the face roles and rolls. I played both ends of the spectrum and really, there are times when everyone shines.

It also teaches people to be more inventive with their actions. At the beginning the sammie is faster, but quickly the others find a way to speed themselves up.

Also if you want to bring the sammie down a peg, just throw some spirits at him. He won't have a foci to hit it with.
QUOTE
8: undo anything ever Rob Boyle touched in shadowrun (eclipse phase is his sweet spot)

I am hard on Rob, but he was the line developer who made shadowrun shiny. his vision was completely different from SR's roots.
QUOTE
[i]10: get Jim Butcher to write some novels.
Again, for the kids, what are you referring to here? Which mechanics need to be excised?[i]

Jim Butcher really is a talented writer. He beats up his protagonists and constantly kills off main characters. he does it inventively, and in a character developing manner. (grab the audiobooks from a library)

Oh ... and grounding was abused when people say they could summon a watcher spirit and ground through them from astral space, when manifested. (basically making them an astral bomb) We never did this thankfully.
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Bigity
post Oct 13 2011, 09:27 PM
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Well as we see above, that wasn't legal anyway.

Where can I get an OCR PDF of the 2nd edition rules?


EDIT: I guess BattleCorps or DriveThru don't have em. Bugger all.
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JonathanC
post Oct 13 2011, 09:46 PM
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Wait, are you guys saying that Magicians can't be attacked through their active foci anymore? When did that happen? I'd always assumed that this was still the case. If you had an active focus, you were dual-natured and could be attacked by astral things.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 13 2011, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Oct 13 2011, 02:46 PM) *
Wait, are you guys saying that Magicians can't be attacked through their active foci anymore? When did that happen? I'd always assumed that this was still the case. If you had an active focus, you were dual-natured and could be attacked by astral things.


Could not ground spells in either 3rd or 4th, from what I remember.
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JonathanC
post Oct 13 2011, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 13 2011, 01:59 PM) *
Could not ground spells in either 3rd or 4th, from what I remember.

I'm pretty sure in 3rd edition that anyone with an active sustaining focus was dual-natured, which meant they were attackable in the Astral (ditto for anyone Astrally Perceiving). It's not the same as grounding (your teammates were safe), but it was definitely a disadvantage to using sustaining foci to keep Mage Armor/Enhanced Reflexes on yourself.
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Platinum
post Oct 13 2011, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Oct 13 2011, 05:35 PM) *
I'm pretty sure in 3rd edition that anyone with an active sustaining focus was dual-natured, which meant they were attackable in the Astral (ditto for anyone Astrally Perceiving). It's not the same as grounding (your teammates were safe), but it was definitely a disadvantage to using sustaining foci to keep Mage Armor/Enhanced Reflexes on yourself.


You weren't dual natured. You can attack the focus with the dispel metamagic. That will deactivate it, and break the bond. You cannot damage a mage unless he was perceiving.
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Blade
post Oct 14 2011, 08:40 AM
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Rob Boyle didn't make Shadowrun shiny. He made it a bit more transhumanist, but he put the grit back in SR4 as well. I wonder if Mike Mulvihill hasn't done more to make Shadowrun shiny than Rob has.

But after all, even Robert N. Charette's books are more "epic" and heroic than bleak and gritty. And the world they describe isn't the one people seems to remember from the first editions.
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Cheops
post Oct 15 2011, 01:31 AM
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Does anyone know if Neo-Anarchism is referrenced in SR4 at all? I'm not trying to slag the edition I'm just curious if the movement is still around.
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CanRay
post Oct 15 2011, 01:33 AM
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FastJack toasts the old Neo-@s in the beginning of SR4 when he complains that it should be Captain Chaos writing this.

I'd say the movement is still around (Black Cross and Black Crescent are both mentioned), but it's taken a serious blow as there's been a serious shift away from all the PoliClubs in general.

EDIT: Until this year, I'd have thought the people in the First World had forgotten how to do a good, proper riot, really. Some days, I feel like Spider Jerusalem... Only I don't get access to all the nice drugs he does...
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Tiralee
post Oct 15 2011, 09:14 AM
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"The feel in the older stuff was that being running the Shadows was because the system didn't want you, or wouldn't let you in. You had to do the corps' dirty work in order to survive. Now? It reads like it's some sort of trend. Like getting a tribal or tramp-stamp tattoo. "

God, THIS.

We play 3rd and our best comes from being hardscrabble, or smart enough to not exist, to fall through the cracks. A lot in the early stuff was safetly and security = the corps, freedom and self-determination = a corpse.
Yes, we want comfort, but not in a plushy coffin.


It really looks too safe now - re-read Queen Euphoria (Still best published adventure) and the descriptions of her lavish digs vs the squat where your hardcase sleeps fitfully.

Yes, once Fanpro choked there was some severe creep and a lot of was "it worked for <insert different game here> let's try that".

Dunkie buying it was biiig, major and with less colour to it than some of the lesser splatbooks. Sure, Dunkie's bequest tried to make up for it (Sorta wish they'd made at least an official attempt at chasing down each plot thread that can-of-worms created - you could have gotten 4-8 entire adventure books from some of the behind-the-scenes bastardry that was going on, but everytime I tried, the players looked at me, looked at each other and said, "Don't fucking deal with dragons or their shit") but considering the UB (and that was some serious evil right there) and the the crap from Deus and the SCIRE (Oh, look, it's the world's biggest dungeon! Again!), it was ripples, because noone wanted to rock the boat when it came to the Dragons.

Year of the Comet - eh, for introducing the Sheldim, it's a sorta pass. For introducing the Changlings, it gets beaten with a phonebook.

Threats! Threats 2! Where's fucking Threats 3?
Could you see some of the big-ass baddies in SR4 filling the pages with horror, like reading though and understanding that 2 of the biggest Dragons in the 6th world were discussing how best to bomb Chi-Town back to the stone age with chemical weapon-grade insecticides? And that it was only the start?

There it is - you can see the other side and reach it in time with the later versions. In SR2-early SR3, it was far and away from you. You could smell it sometimes, when the wind was right, but you went on and ate your damn soymeal and felt better than the guy down there in the street grilling his devil rat familiar.

-Tir
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Snow_Fox
post Oct 16 2011, 03:21 PM
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I think it was that the quality of the suppliments slipped. the 'fluff' that made the world richer was all but abnadoned in favor of just number crunching. THe play stystem itself was fine, we still use 3rd ed except for the hacking rules.
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bibliophile20
post Oct 16 2011, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 13 2011, 02:40 PM) *
Don't teach you kids to read any longer?

Jim Butcher is a novelist that's put out a few series (But so far nothing for Shadowrun, he wasn't writing when Shadowrun Novels were being put out), one of which, The Dresden Files, is very Shadowrun in feel. Aside from being in Modern Times.

If you look for them, ignore the horrible TV show, just look for the novels. Jim is, literally, counting the days until the IP for TV returns to him so that he can get someone that will do it right. (Honestly, a HOCKEY AND DRUM STICK for magic tools? Did they blow the budget on illicit drugs?).

He also took The Lost Roman Legion (An idea that's been done to death) and Pokemon, combined them together, and made a series full of AWESOME!


Jim Butcher writing a Shadowrun novel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Excuse me while I squee at the mere thought...
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CanRay
post Oct 16 2011, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (bibliophile20 @ Oct 16 2011, 10:30 AM) *
Jim Butcher writing a Shadowrun novel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Excuse me while I squee at the mere thought...
Very much so. I wish I had contacts with CGL about their Novel Lines and how to talk to Jim's agent...
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