The big problem is that the elemental spirits are based on things, while most of the ones in Street Magic are based on concepts -- war, ingenuity, wisdom, protection, etc. By their very nature, that makes them more versatile and easy to assign abilities to. With, say, Spirits of Fire you're kind of limited. Giving them access to an entire group of skills doesn't really make sense. And beyond the already obvious things like Elemental Strike, Engulf, and Elemental Aura, what else is there to give them that they don't already have? And how do you open them up to broader concepts, especially for traditions based on ancient mythologies where their gods/spirits represent aspects of humanity more than just the elements?

The only thing I can think of is giving them access to Innate Spell, but only from a limited selection of spells related to their base concept/category of sorcery. I really hate that it has to be a spell the conjurer already knows, though, as they should be as independent of their summoner as their other spirit powers are.

That said, one thing that should be a baseline for all spirits, at least in my opinion, is Magical Guard. They are magic incarnate, so they should have little to no trouble offering aid against magic. Especially since all of them have access to abilities like Aid Sorcery anyway.

But honestly, I think the biggest mistake is assigning spirits to categories of sorcery. I really don't see why traditions should be limited to only a few of them, other than the now outdated and archaic division between hermetic magic and shamanistic magic. I'd rather have things like Aid Sorcery strengthed than continue to have traditions bound by that sort of thing.

Sounds like someone's discovered the violet flame.

three things I'd change:
-remove Magical Guard from the new spirits
-give Magical Guard (Spirits-only) to all spirits
-redo the Possession power, so it won't bump attributes.

I'd go with the first two, but the last one, by most of the arguments offered here on DS, would simply make Possession 'weaker' than Materialization, rather than balancing the two. (My personal opinion is that as it stands neither Possession nor Materialization is particularly stronger than the other.)

Hmm this poll adds more fuel to the fire about possession tradition being NPC only... the top three spirits all seem to be possession tradition? Also I agree with an earlier poster that all spirits should have access to magical guard as an optional power.

- Overhaul the whole spirit system so that the most powerful SR character isn't the spirit summoned by the most powerful character (and so that mages don't routinely summon entities more powerful than they are, having them do the whole run)
- Get rid of the spirit difference in the rules. All spirits have the same basic powers and stats, and additional attributes, skills or powers can be added but raise the drain, with more powerful powers having a higher modifier. Some traditions can prefer or dislike some powers, but that's fluff and roleplay. I'm not sure if the mage should create his own set of 5 spirits of if he should be able to summon whatever he wants.
- Force the mages players to learn about the tradition of his character (at least read the wikipedia page about it), and the place of spirits in that tradition.

Here we go again with the mage bashing.
Why don't you overhaul the system to disallow the most powerful mundane character to have the most powerful toys while you're at it. A bunch of chameleon coated LEBD-1s are not that expensive even when equipped with an FA-modded Barret and an ammo bin (for the belt feed). Those will probably one shot every spirit a mage can summon.
What's the difference between the player playing the spirit doing the run and the player playing the mage doing the run? If you have only obstacles that can be overcome by the mage most easily, your opposition is not doing the job. Even if the mage had the largest dice pool for every task, there are situations where different tasks need to be done simultaneously and even the mage only has one complex action at a time. If the mage's player is a spotlight hog, talk to him, don't change the rules.

If you are actually talking about the players saying that the spirit should to the run for them (i.e. you play it), this is a problem with the players not with the game system.
Doable, but not necessary in my opinion.

Do you force players of other characters to know every aspect of their characters' skills? I doubt there are many players who take the voodoo tradition and not play a houngan. If you got one of those, again this is not a problem of the system, it is one of the player/gaming group.

Another problem with this approach is that if a tradition revers spirits rather than use them, this contradicts with the game mechanics, since every magician can tell his spirits what to do no matter how he sugar coats it. You either nerf one tradition against others or it becomes a non-issue.

Because the problem with magic is not that it is extreamly strong if you meet a bunch of requirements. It is really strong out of the blue.


Reminds me of Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit.

The point is, there is virtually nothing a 400 BP character is able to do against a Force 8 or even 10 spirit out of chargen. But it is not that hard to build a mage who is able to summon something like that.
Magic 5, Powerfocus 4, Summoning 6, (spec and/or mentor spirit) gives you around 17-19 dices against 8 to 10.
The drain is between 0 and 20. Sounds deadly, but the risk to take more than 12 (before soaking) is close to non existant.
If you got yourself around 10(human) to 12 dices(elf) for drain, you are more than able to deal with it. (If shit hits the fan, use edge...)
Yeah, probably the force 10 spirit will cause you problems, but hey force 8 is more than enough.
(If you start out with some ware, you are probably only able to summon force 8, but you will have some better drain resistance.)

Well the above drone is 6 BP add a decent commlink, control rig and pilot aircraft and gunnery at five and appropriate specializations you still only expend 55BP. Magician, MAG 5, Restricted Gear, bonded Power Focus 4, Summoning 6 (+specialization) and Mentor spirit is 75 BP, not to mention that you already used 20 of your 35 BP for positive Qualities. Yes the summoner is more versatile, but he also invested more resources.


You wanted to link Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit. While the clip is funny and a popular trope of SR, I have not yet witnessed this problem in game.

Any weapon with SnS will be able to hurt the Force 8 spirit with 2 net hits. Automatic weapons can even be used in wide bursts to make net hits more likely. The Barret from above loaded with APDS (unfortunately not available a CharGen) will hurt the Spirit with any hit. Force 8 Spirits have between 10 and 12 REA, so unless the spirit goes on Full defense, which prohibits him from doing anything else, there is a good chance the rigger will hit him with his 14 dice. 17 dice(BOD+Armor) versus 10+DV is bound to hurt. Do not forget that the rigger gets 3 passes (and can upgrade to 5) and the spirit only 2.

Due to a lack of bicycles in the game?

No due to varied obstacles and absence of spotlight hogs.

Well you get also some different stuff as a mage... You do not use your magic 5 only for spirits....


Well, you need 3 net hits. Damage has to surpass the armor, as far as I know. (SnS has DV 6 and needs 9)
So yes a wide burst with SnS would probably help.
So could you flash this out for me? Where does the rigger gets his DV from? Is it stick and shock? Or are you using the barret and hoping for a net hit going 10/12 against 14 dice?
So yes, a hyper focused character requirers a force 10 spirit. (Unless you allow for a surprise test and the character will turn to ash before his first action)
We can start pitting a force 8 spirit against a drone but if we do so, it should be considered, that the spirit may also get a spell on him cast by the mage. (Or as a spirit of men a spell sustained by himself.... (Here is always the question about spirit services. If I give a spirit the spell combat reflexes and order him to fight, will he use the spell to make himself harder to hit. With an 8 for logic and intuition I would guess so)

Even if all of this is considered, I do not see the drone to win that.
An elemental attack of the spirit would probably fry the drone. DV:8+net hits (halved armor...) (Well the only drones where this is not true are the humanoid once, because they are allowed very much armor)

The issue I have is this:
* Consider a mage, whose Magic, Sumonning and drain Attributes ratings are the highest ratings he has (which is often the case). Let n be that rating.
* When the mage summons a spirit, he opposes n*2 against the spirit's force. He can summon a spirit of force=1.5*n with a good chance of sucess, and a limited risk.
* The spirit has, on average, 1.5*n for all Attributes, Skills and Powers. He's, basically, more 1.5 times more powerful than the mage who has summoned him.

Of course, the spirit won't have all the skills or spells of the mage, though most powers will be able to replace a skill (even doing a better job), task spirits will be able to have technical skills and man spirit will be able to cast spells. Plus he has all sorts of useful powers, including the spirit armor. So, most of the time, the spirit will just be more powerful than the mage.
It's not about being more powerful than the other players, it's not about hogging the spotlight, it's just about playing a character who only summons spirits who do everything. I don't think playing a spirit is as fun and interesting as playing a real character.


I force players to think about the personality of their characters. I'd also ask the (ex)-ganger's player to know a little about how gangs work and what it's like to be a ganger. And since your magical tradition has a huge impact on the way you see/feel the world, I think players should learn about the tradition of their mages. At least read the Wikipedia page about it.

Unless you buy additional skills, you can only use it for summoning. MAG linked skills don't allow defaulting.

You are right of course, my bad.

Yup, it was the Barret with APDS. The 14 DP was Response 5 + Gunnery(ballistic) 5(+2) +Hot Sim 2. Since the weapon is FA the spirit should not get many dice to dodge, or you could hope for 14 vs 10/12 for a DV of 19+ vs 17 dice.

I wouldn't call 55BP hyper focused. There are ways to get more out of the drone rigger concept. A Force 10 spirit is also more likely to incapacitate the mage or at least not show up.

This of course goes both ways.

As I said above, this only works if you invest in further skills (Spellcasting or Ritual Spellcasting) and spells. I agree that a spirit would use all the tools it has available in combat.

I'm not saying that the drone should automaitcally win. I'm just saying that magic is not gamebreakingly more powerful with a similar investment of resources.
Yes Range:LOS on those is a problem. Still with great distance and chameleon coating it might not be that easy for the spirit. Also the spirit needs to use physical LOS or astral "LOS", the drone could also use echolocation or radar.

I'm not interested in the "spirits are too good in general" debate. You're a believer or you're not.*

I want to get back to the original question: the big disparity in spirit power levels. How can the weak spirits be made attractive, or the strong ones brought back in line (without nerfing them beyond recognition)?

Should every spirit class have a special, unique and exciting power, like Man/Guidance/Guardian/Task?

Should the specialuniqueexciting spirits pay for their powers with lower stats?

I think giving every spirit something special is the better way, because stat reductions are difficult. You can't really reduce the stats the spirit needs for its "job", such as a Guardian's physical attributes, or a Guardian's mental ones. But with five spirits to choose, you never have to worry about your spirit's weakness if you always summon the one most suited to the job.



* If you think spirits in general are too strong, use a general nerf to summoning, such as capping Force. But this topic was about power imbalance between spirit types.

How about giving the elemental ones immunity [element], Electricity for air, Acid for earth, Fire fire and cold for water? I know it sounds like DnD but grilling a Fire spirit is just wrong. I'm talking about actual immunity not the way the Power works. Maybe even make the element heal the spirit. The DV is resisted normally but remaining boxes are not marked but erased. So a tiny flame will not help the all powerful Force 10 spirit much.

Another thing would be to give the elemental spirits Shape [Element].

Beast spirits should have infiltration, survival and shadowing/tracking.

Healing a spirit with its own element is a bad idea, you'll end up with air spirits wearing shock gloves for regeneration.

Which nobody does...


Barret (the sniper rifle) is an full auto weapon? I do not have the books on me, but that sounds silly...

Well, but a lot of those BP are gone, if the drone is gone. How many BP are gone if the spirit is gone?

But due to the high attributes of the spirit, he will probably win...

The point is, if you paid for magic and beeing a mage and a powerfocus, the skill spellcasting is easy to pick up...

The point is, those have a limited field where you can apply them. (The drone has to be with you, it is not allowed to draw too much attention. Hackers are able to mess with it etc. etc.)

The mage, having traveled first class to meet his girlfriend in japan. Ends up spending the night with her with a bunch of guys from yakuzaa crashing the party (looking for him or his girlfriend). He does not even need to get out of his girlfriend to take care of that. He just needs to focus 0.7 to 3 sec and send the spirit to take care of them.
(I won't even go into spirits on the offence. It matrialized behind you and stung you in the back. You are dead. Have a nice day. Or possession: You jumped out of the window, you are dead, Have a nice day)


If the spirit would not have 16 dice to spot you...(And again the question about does astral perception work on drones that good. If you use the rules, it is just fine. Which it should not be...)

@Ascalaphus
Give every spirit counterspelling (stops the manabolt madness a bit) but limit it to self (prevents magic immunity as soon as two spirits are helping one mage).


Mental are always force, so no messing with that I guess. But I have to disagree, messing with the attributes should be on the table. And actually if the guardian spirit gets S+2 or +1 does not make him "not able to do his job".
Giving every spirit something special (and having every thing else the same) always ends up with taking the one spirit with the best gift. (Take the great form powers from street magic. Some are great and some are not so great. If spirits would be all the same expect for those powers, I guess it would be easy to find the best spirit.

I think special cake spirits should be weaker. So a spirit of the beast will tear a spirit of man to shreds in combat (even without natural weapon), because the spirit of men has the possibility of casting spells (which is very usefull) and sustaining them without a modifier(which is very nice).

No, it's not, but nothing prevents you from using 4 of the six slots to make it FA.

True, but as I said, the rigger could also invest more to be better.

Without the power focus the summoning will be a lot more risky. This item can be lost as well. Background count and other mages can mess with the spirit. Both characters have their problems with adverse conditions.

It takes the mage a complex action to summon the spirit. He then needs a simple action to command the spirit to do something. The spirit then needs another complex action to materialize. So unless the spirit for some reason is always delaying its action, it takes three IPs for the spirit to enter the fray. A lot can happen during that time.

Unless the mage of a possession tradition runs around as the composite entity, which has its own drawbacks, it takes the same time. Also it will be the spirit running around, not the summoner. That should be roleplayed accordingly.

The problem is that the book does not mention when such a spirit becomes visible and when it becomes targetable from the physical plane. How you handle that, can make the action a lot more scary or less.
Offensive possession is powerful. Unless the spirit leaves before the composite entity hits the ground, this may cause spirit bane for the summoner. Timing this right may be difficult.


How transparent are clouds on the astral? echolocation and radar can pierce them, but can physical or astral sight?

Those are interesting ideas.. I like both the Real Immunity to [Element] and the Shape [Element] ideas, they sound appropriate to elemental spirits.

Abstractly, healing inside your own element makes some sense, although it needs to be implemented carefully; plugging an air spirit into a wall socket would be funky. (Do Air spirits really get Electrical damage, or is that a D&D bleedover?)

They already have Immunity to Normal Weapons. They don't need to be able to regenerate damage, too. Doubly so if you introduce another total immunity to them.

Giving them a boost to specific combat maneuvers might be interesting, though. For instance, Air spirits may excel at knocking people down or disarming, Earth spirits might be better at grappling, Water spirits at subdual combat, and Fire Spirits at called shots to bypass armor. That sort of thing.

We lost something when SR switched away from requiring the appropriate element being present when a spirit/elemental was summoned. This may seem like a further limitation on the 'elemental' types, but in fact it could work to make them more flexible and more readily available. Imagine what circumstances might be necessary to summon a Guardian spirit. Not necessarily to keep them around or bind them, but to bring them in the first place.

An Air spirit needs... air to be present.

What might a Guardian spirit need?
- imminent danger
- going into combat

Or a Guidance spirit?
- a question unanswered
- being lost or unsure of the way

A Task spirit?
- a specific task to be performed

A Plant spirit?
- plants... duh.

Applying such a stricture would make the pure elemental types much more readily available.

"Dude, hold your gun to my head."

"Is there a unifying field theory?" "What will the winning numbers of Saturday's lottery be?

Well that is a given on a shadowrun.

This might actually be the most diffiult condition to fulfil. plants are not everywhere and the have a limited lifespan out of their natural habitat.

Air and water may be easy at least if spit qualifies for water, but fire and earth might not be. Making fire may not always be easy and there is the question what qualifies as earth. Soil? minerals? metal? fossil fuels? plastics?

Also what does presence mean? Will the material be consumed? If so, depending on quantities, summoning an air spirit may be a stupid idea indoors.

I like the shape(element) innate spell idea. Other suggestions:

1. All spirits get magical guard (self). Only guardian get magical guard unrestricted.

2. Only elemental spirits get Concealment, and it's restricted to their element. How to implement this would necessarily require a lot of fuzz and inconsistency among GMs, but I'd like to see air spirits only concealing you under an open sky, or in fog/mist conditions inside, etc. You have to be on or in water for a water spirit, earth spirits can take care of you when laying on the ground, or in a forest, or underground. Concealment is highly restricted or unavailable in many urban environments. Gives it a needed, IMO, nerf and forces you to give up other options to the one effect you really want.

3. Only elemental spirits get Movement, and it's restricted to their element. If you want Movement on the ground, you need an earth spirit, end of discussion. Air only helps if you're flying or levitating, water swimming or a boat on the water. Maybe give beast or guardian Movement (self).

4. Similarly, guard/accident only work in the proper environmental context. Let guardian spirits keep guard as a general tool, maybe, but if I did I'd consider taking away elemental attack: under that concept guardian spirits are melee fighters who can also (exclusively) protect humans from magic and accidents in all environments, but can't also rain down death from a distance and with total elemental flexibility.

5. Take Fear away from elemental spirits (except maybe Fire). Not sure about confusion. Basically, reduce powers available across the board, make elemental spirits focused and specialized on controlling their element and benefiting their summoner in that environment, let Men be limited to mental powers and Innate Spell (remove Psychokinesis and Accident), maybe remove Search from everyone but Man/Beast/Guidance (or make Search on elemental spirits limited to their environment).

6. Eliminate Plant spirits. Add Silence to Earth spirits, if you feel the need to keep their only unique ability available. Maybe make Stun engulf an option for Earth.

7. Consider lessening the variance on spirit attributes. Why can't Air be A+2, Fire A+1, Water A, Earth A-1? Does Air need a full five dice attack advantage on Earth? Although if you do a lot of the above, maybe the much lesser utility of support abilities from an Air spirit makes keeping a wide disparity that makes it a much better fighter is still necessary. With the above changes Earth spirits are the best utility, they're tough, maybe they don't need to be very good at hitting anyone. Air are relatively poor utility (unless you sustained Levitate everywhere or are a pixie) but can remain the best combatants.

I think strong specialization of spirits, and big reduction in overlap between abilities, would be an improvement. This would mean taking some powers away from every spirit, until any power is only found on one or two spirits.

I wouldn't want to remove Plant, because they're an Element in the eastern five-element system. But they need to be different from Earth; perhaps by giving Plant (self)healing abilities while Earth gets gonzo resilience and bulldozerish melee power.

True Elemental Immunity is especially important for Fire elementals, because right now you can easily burn medium-Force Fire elementals to death, and that's just wrong.

I like the idea of basically making Beast spirits good at stealth, detection and close combat - kind of like magical bloodhounds. It gives them a different use than Guardian, which are more useful for a "stand and fight" sort of tactic.

Clarifying (and balancing) the vagaries of Concealment and Movement is of course also important. None of this "PCs can't do it themselves, so we can get away with vague overpowered-seeming rules"; PCs can summon it, so it needs to be clear what it can and can't do, and it needs to be reasonably balanced.