And if they are using a ballistic weapon vs one of the ares lasers.. which have their own issues

Could be, though I never seem to lack for Sensor dice, but I also heavily customize [and thus spend through the nose].

If you have the money, it's not a problem, just use an Anchoring Foci (with detection spell trigger and a protective spell), to avoid being killed. Then your security team can surely crush up the sniper in half a second.

With technology and magic, a sniper is never sure to leave the combat scene alive.
A sniper rifle make sound and light, it's easy to spot the shooter when he open fire. With a spatial reconizer, it's very easy to localize then origin of the sound, for exemple.

Just what kind of indoor mall do you go to?! Sewer grates in the mall!?

Sensor drones are helpful, load up on spectra from uv to longwave IR plus some terahertz and have pilot programs smart enough to identify humans and rifles. Next check out all the points that can see main paths, then check your path. Wear plenty of armor, the further away someone is the harder it is to get that perfect shot into the unprotected eyeball; armor will likely be hit. Mages should help identify places to look for snipers with detection spells. Anyone with a rifle should know where to look and how to look for a sniper and should have a rocket launcher or grenade launcher incase the sniper can't be pinpointed. Use that nice new toy that locates shooters by the acoustics of the shot. And don't be afraid to immediately check out the area (determined by the acoustic device) with a MMG. Oh and don't forget to take cover and get the hell out of his shooting window.

Except that all of those options have a range that the Sniper can generally be outside of. Your Radar, for example, has a peasly range of 100 Meters (Signal 2 Capability). Not so useful when the shot comes from 1km. Same with most of your sensors. Since most such systems have a DEVICE rating of 3 (Regardless of wehether your Sensor rating is a 6), you do not generally have the range to detect someone outside of that 400 Meter Radius. MOST sniping will occur outside of 500 Meters, if possible, so those systems will not allow you to detect the Sniper. And even if you have the area blanketed with Sensors (Not bloody likely), you will still take time to locate the Sniping POsition. If you boost the Signal Ratings of the Device (Expensive), you will have so much clutter that the sensor will be nigh unuseable due to data overload.

THIS is the problem with Snipers. A good one will have already killed the target before you ever get to roll to perceive him. Generally only 1 Pass worth of shots will be needed, and the Sniper is then gone, and/or is using his Escape covering distraction to divert the searchers. While tyhis can be a good tactic to use sparingly, ity getsd rather boring as the sole schtick of the character. And has been mentioned before, when the Players use this tactic, expect the GM to do so as well. It is quite disheartening to lose a PC with no recourse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

What are the assumptions you are making about the sniper? PC equivalent build? Then yea PCs will be lost just like any time a prime runner ambushes PCs.

Signal on Sensors isn't determined by Device Rating, it's determined by the size of the vehicle as shown on the Sensor Packages table on SR4a p334 [and modified by the Improved Sensor Array vehicle modification, Arsenal p138]. [edit: Also on SR4a p334, the Rating of individual sensors is equal to the package Sensor Rating unless otherwise specified; do you mean something else by "device rating" in this context, and what is that rating used for, do you think?]


I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you explain?

[edit: Also, raising the Signal rating of the Device won't raise the Signal of the Sensors, only the Signal of the wireless link itself; it's like if you have a radio controlled telescope: buying a bigger antenna doesn't change the quality of your optics themselves.]

No, outside. There's usually a lot of drainage in parking lots where I live because of this things called "Snow" and "Spring". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Or walk a few more blocks just to distance from the CSI team's search pattern.

Lets see. Simple Veteran Sniper with no Mods. Not Maxed.
4 Agility
4 Skill
Specialty
Smartlink

Hmmmmm.... 12 Dice, non resisted. That will kill most Metahumans outright with the right Weapon.
It really is not all that difficult to kill someone with a Sniper NPC.

Drones, however do not get a Signal Range of 6 from the Improved Sensor Array. Only Actual Vehicles do. Secondly. Your ranges for Drone Sensors are 400-1000 (Signal 3-4) meters. They MIGHT catch the sniper, if they are very, very, lucky, as most drones do not have the capacity to suck up a -12 or so for penaltiues, and still hit the required threshold reliably (Remember, a Drone gets Sensor Rating + Clearsight for its dice pool to notice things; the best drone will have 10 Dice (Sensor 6, Clearsight 4)). As someone mentioned earlier, you can get up to about a -15 or so with everything going the sniper's way.

The device rating is not the same as the Equipment rating. The Device rating incorporates your Signal, which determines exactly how far the independant sensor (Not on a vehicle or drone) is capable of reaching. In some cases, like the Ultrawideband Radar, it has its own range independant of the Signal rating determined by drone/vehicle size (in this case a Signal 2 for the sensor). The SENSOR Rating (of the vehicle/drone/actual sensor) determines how GOOD the sensor is, not its range (which is determined by Signal Rating of the device, or the Drone/Vehicle it is mounted upon).



This is true in the Strictest sense. Sorry if I caused any Confusion. But you nailed it above. The Improved Sensor array will raise the Signal Rating of Sensors on a VEHICLE from a 5 to a 6 (changing it to an Extra Large Vehicle Array), which is what I was actually referring to (and why I said it was expensive since it is an Additional 1,000 Nuyen in addition to Sensor costs).

Hope that I did not cause any undue confusion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I wasn't assuming vehicle-size sensors, nor even highly specialized (and expensive) drones. You can give them Pilot 6, Clearsight 6, etc. etc., but normal drones can barely spot metahumans in the street. Stupid sensor rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers from. Drone sensors [from the table on SR4a p334] have Sensors with Signals from 2 to 4, meaning 3 to 5 including Improved Sensor Array [ISA]: a large drone with ISA has a Sensor range of 4km, greater than any sniper rifle in the game. [1650, if I'm not mistaken: 1500 + 10 percent from Extended Barrel.]

Vehicles and emplacements have even longer ranges; many ground vehicles have Sensor ranges of 40km or more; any vehicle can have a Sensor range of 10km with Improved Sensor Array. So there are plenty of vehicle sensors, including drone sensors, with ranges greater than any sniper.


I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from, either. Could you explain?


Could you provide a page reference for this? My understanding is that Sensor ranges are determined by the table on SR4a p334, and not by the rating of any individual sensor or Sensor package.


Exactly true: range is determined by size of the vehicle, plus ISA...


...but no, the Signal Rating of the device or drone is the range of the wireless transceiver itself [SR4a, p222]. That's my understanding: again, if you could hit me up with a page number explaining that Sensor range is equal to vehicle Signal, I'd appreciate that, too.

You're forgetting 4 dice of Take Aim bonus.

Drones cannot have Clearsight 6. Autosofts are restricted to Rating 4.

Simple. An Improved Sensor Array only raises the size/capacity of the Sensor package. I can agree that this includes the power/capacity to increase the Signal to that package to the next step. So a Large Drone gets Signal 5 (4km)... Not sure how I missed that particular bit, but it still does not change the scenmario. The Sensor will still not likely pick up a Competant Sniper.



Yes, I know that. But how many of these are you going to see on the street, realistically. Vehicles like this stand out immensely. And even still. They will be unable to make the roll due to the massive penalties that can be ammassed when Sniping.




Let me try.

An internal Silencer on a Sniper Rifle has a base of -6
Electronic Firing is a -1
For Closer Ranges, Subsonic Rounds add another -2 (I would never allow these beyond Medium Range, personally, but by RAW, they are allowed)
Depending upon how your table rolls; -3 for Far/Distant Shot (or -1/-3/6 for Range Increment penalties), so up to -3 or -1/-3/-6 dependant upon Table.
Interfering Sight/odor/sounds -2
Active Looking (assuming right place and right time, does not help if you are looking/listening in wrong direction, or not at all) +3, otherwise an additional -2 for Distracted. I will break that out seperately.

Lets see.
For Sounds against a Threshold 2 (Silenced Fire), that would be a -9/12 for Hearing the shot, additional -5 if "Distracted" rather than Active looking (you lose the +3 and gain a -2)

For Sight against a Variable Threshold (lets say 3 for the Sniper, with an inherent -4 for Chameleon Coating); that would be -9/-12, with possible additional -5 if "Distracted" rather than active looking (Again, you lose the +3 and gain an additional -2)...

You will never smell the discharge at that range, so no roll...

Radar, at Rating 4 and Clearsight 4 will have 8 Dice with a Threshold of 5 for the Bullet (Micro), so not likely.


Drones cannot defeat those penalties, at extreme range, against a Sniper. Will not happen.

Sound: 10 Dice, -9 for lowest penalty is 1 Die (Threshold 2), Highest Penalty is going to reduce the Dronbe to no Dice.
Sight: 10 Dice, -9 for lowest penalty is 1 Die (Threshold Variable, Likely above 3), Highest Penalty is going to reduce the Drone to no Dice.
Ultrawideband Radar: 8 Dice vs Threshold of 5. Not likely, but has the best chance of detecting the bullet, though it will still be too late, and it will still not detect the Sniper, since he is out of the Range of the UWB, which is hard limited to 100 Meters.




They are. The table for Drones is Signal rating 2-4 (100 meters to 1km). Vehicles have a Signal Rating of 5 (4km), unless equipped with the Improved Sensor Array (raising it to 10km). A Large Vehicle Array stands out.




Signal Range for Sensor Scans based upon the Sensor Package Size



This is independant of their Signal Transceiver for broadcasting the data the sensor picks up. For most Sensors, this Device Rating is 3 (Electronics/Sensors). So, most Sensors can transmit to a range of 100 Meters. However, their scanning range is based upon the Package they are in (0 for an RFID (so 3 Meters) to 6 for a Large Vehicle Array, which only a VEHICLE CAN HAVE, for a Scan Range of 10km). I can agree with you that a Large Drone could indeed have a Base range of 4km, since it upgrades to a Vehicle Array in Size (so, Signal 5).

So, once again, most Drones will have Sensor Ranges of Rating 3-4. Yes, A LArge Drone can get to a 5, and a Vehicle can get to a 6.

Whew... Does this make any sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Apologies for Wall of Text...

Indeed I did, but I would remove those immediately for a Called Sot anyways. 1 Shot, 12 Dice. Weapon Damage +4 +Net Hits (Say we buy 3, average is 4) with an AP of 7-8 (APDS Rounds), and NO DODGE? This generally equals a Dead Character, whether an NPC or PC.

So with a Barrett: 9p+4p+3p = 16p with AP -8. (Average Hits raises damage to 17p)
The Lesser HK-PSG1 (My Personal Favorite): 7p+4p+3p = 14p and AP -7. (Average Hits raises the Damage to 15p)

You could spend Edge, to be sure, to soak the damage. But assume a slightly above-Normal Human, with 10 Points of Armor (Which is a bit much, but go with it). This results in Human (Body 5) with 2-3 points of remaining Armor. 7-8 Dice to soak 16p/14p. Assume an Edge of 4. So, he can roll 11-2 Dice with re-roll 6's and likely soak 5 Boxes (4 Initial Average Hits, and an additional hit from the assumed 2 6's for a total of 5). He is still full up on Damage if it is a Barrett (and is bleeding out), and he is almost dead from the HK. If the Sniper gets more than average, or spends Edge to take the shot, they are both likely dead.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

USMC Snipers. You can run, but you will only die tired. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

But, seriously, no, it doesn't. If you have a copy of SR4a, could you take a look at the third column on the "Sensor Packages" table on page 334? The Sensor range is dependent on the size of the vehicle [plus ISA],* and not on Device rating, equipment rating, Sensor rating, or Signal rating of the drone.

Thus, range need not be a consideration of this conversation as pertains to Signal and Sensor, because large drones can have Sensor ranges out to 4km, greater than any sniper rifle, and anything minidrone and upward could have a Sensor with a range of 1km, which is not quite to maximum range for a sniper. So if you want to be able to do this reliably, all the way out to the maximum possible range a sniper could hit you, you'll want a large drone, a vehicle, or an emplacement. [Or, strangely, ATGM sensors, which you can't just bolt to your car for some reason; sigh.]

[edit: We're cool with that, right? It seems like we might be on the same page now, but there's one thing at the start and one thing at the end, so I wasn't sure.]


Sniping doesn't only happen on the street, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't mean that shadowrunning snipers should always be concerned that their opposition will have Sensors with a 40km range, only that such things exist, and might well be something shadowrunning snipers would run into. Actually, pretty often, truth be known, although I don't think most of us use them in games.


See, here's the thing: you've assumed all these things, like the sniper has access to all this high-end stuff - chameleon coating, electronic firing - but the drone doesn't get thermo, or Vision Enhancement, or a Spatial Recognizer. If you take nine dice away from ten dice, yeah, you've only got one die, but if you include arbitrary capabilities on one side, you have to include them on the other, and drones can have many more than ten dice on their own to detect a sniper. Keeping in mind, all they have to do is recognize a sniper's there, and their rigger is going to show up with a lot more dice in his pocket. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mind you, as many people have pointed out, this is useless: if the sniper has taken his shot, it's probably over. Certainly it'll be over one way or the other by the time you can get someone to him; either the target will be destroyed, or it'll have been removed from the sniper's ability to fire upon. At that point, all you can hope is to detain the sniper. My point so isn't that sniping in Shadowrun [as in real life] isn't a spoiler! [Dude, I use sniper rifles on blimps, personally, which can be even more of a spoiler than some guy in a ghillie suit!] My point is only that a drone can hear a sniper; certainly, you can weaken the drone and strengthen the sniper to the point that this becomes impossible, but all things being equal, the drone's got a pretty good shot. [edit: Not to mention the fair likelihood that the drone would know the sniper was there before he took his shot, but that's very circumstance-dependent.]


I'm not sure that it has to, or that it particularly matters if it does, though. "My word, Bob. The Senator's limousine is covered with antennas and lenses and dishes and things! We couldn't possibly snipe it, then: it's just too ugly to look at for that length of time." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Seriously, I would really appreciate a page number on any of this stuff. I'm not familiar with any of the rules you're talking about here. [To be honest, I'd never really even considered the possibility that a Sensor would need to have a Signal range other than that of the vehicle it's attached to, but I guess if it's important for an independent Sensor rig not on a drone or vehicle or emplacement of some kind...]

*And, of course, not including those individual sensors that have their own specific ranges.

Thanks for catching my mistake, TJ, but I was more talking about 'maxed everything'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Might I add, looking through a high power scope is like trying to see the world through a soda straw. Actually identifying and tracking a moving target, or even a target in a semi-busy area, or semi-obscured area, is MUCH, MUCH harder than the movies and video-games make it seem.

Granted, if you familiarize yourself with the hide site long enough (police snipers in a hostage situation, may be observing the situation for literal days or weeks) you can help offset the disadvantage of soda-straw observation, but in anywhere actual opposition might be expected, thats not always practical. Plus, what looked like a good idea on the map or from the ground might turn out to be a shitty spot. Then you have to set up somewhere else.

In short, time is also a factor. You can't just say "I get good sniping position on the car park" right before a meet for example, because that, in its own right might take hours to find. And if the car parks 70 yards to the right, your spot might be useless.

And don't get me started on why the roof is where snipers go to die.

Well, that's why Snipers work in teams, right? Spotter/Sniper?

I think it's the huge amount of non-dodgeable damage with no warning that strains the playability of snipers. It's not that it's unrealistic, it's just that it's not that much fun for a PC to be hit with a shit ton of damage that either kills the character or forces him to burn edge to keep playing. As a GM, there's only so many times you can roll a bunch of dice and tell a player their facing 17P with -14 AP before there's some sort of revolt.

I think if the runners are going to have a sniper after them, knowing about it (rather they turn up clues through legwork or get tipped off by a contact or enemy of their own target) is a big part of the equation. If a particular facility is known to have sharpshooters as part of the defense system, or that a particular organization prefers snipers (the way other organizations prefer car bombs or katana-wielding motorcycle riders), the runners will minimize their vulnerability.

Much as I hate to use it as a reference, there's always the "Modern Warfare" option... "I saw an arm go flying. Good enough, RUN AWAY!"

And because a sniper gets tired fast looking through the scope, and you have essentially no SA when focusing on a target 500 meters away.

The scary thing about snipers is suddenly getting shot from a very long way off.

So if you can foil any of these, you'd be safe:
a) the would-be sniper knows where you'll be going
b) there are (long) lines of fire to that place
c) there are places for the sniper to set up

* Leave the place in an opaque, armored limo, but use multiple limos so the sniper needs to guess which limo you're in.
* Get in in the underground parking garage; no long lines of fire.
* Keep your itinerary secret. Show up without warning, don't tell people where you'll be going next.
* No outdoors events.
* Have your own people at all the possible sniper points and make sure they report in an all-clear before passing.

---

After that best-case scenario for VIPs, the PC way:

* Disguise: don't look like the sniper's intended target.
* Secret itinerary: easier for low-profile people. Why would anyone need to know where you're going?
* Drones/spirits scout the area first. If they report that they can't be certain the area is safe, treat it as hostile.
* Pick your route and destination carefully.
* Scamper from covered area to covered area. Never just walk through exposed areas, run or drive at high speed. We have mapsofts and drones; you should always be able to plan a more-safe route beforehand. Aiming at fast-moving targets is way harder.
* Be hard to see.
* Don't meet people in suspiciously vulnerable areas without very good reason and security precautions.

I think the Barrens, as a slum district, will be crowded, with lots of clutter blocking the view for snipers. It's actually a very difficult place to snipe, because you only get to see people for very short moments. Combine that with just about everyone being paranoid and trying to be inconspicuous, and it's hard to single out one PC from all the NPC hustlers also hiding from their own enemies.

With SR-era computers, mapsofts and drones for up-to-the-moment mapping, you could model all possible directions of fire for an entire route so that you know exactly what and where to watch out for, and which spots to check. Sure, it's paranoid, but it's not all that hard to set up.