OK I still miss Raygun who could add a lot to things like this but I just wanted to put a few ideas out here about gun mags and concealment based on RL observation in the hopes that in sharing someone might be helped and or entertained by it.

Now in SR we have guns with mags and if you get an extended mag, you get a bit sticking out of the bottom of your gun. Now that made sense in gun terms- more ammo, longer bits. I will admitt I am an Italian gun slut and I love Berretta to bits. I have a .25 with an 8 round mag. A .380 with a 10 round mag and a 9mm with 15 round. It seems like a logical progression. The bigger guns have bigger mags and hold more rounds. I'm more comfortable and a better shot with the .380 than the 9mm so that is my fav' carry, wardrobe allowing, I'll sacrifice the larger ammo and harder hit for more accuracy.

Then I was talking to the guys at the range who said my .380 should be able to carry 13 rounds. I was shocked. I don't want something sticking out the bottom. No they explained my 10 round mags were "Brady mags" from the mid 80's and the more modern mags stack up the ammo side by side (sort of) meaning a 30% increase in capacity with no increase in size, meaning my 'concealment' doesn't suffer. which in game terms you may well be able to increase capacity for hand guns without a loss of concealment.

Now this does not always seem to hold true. I was curious about a Walther PPK and PPK-S. also a .380 and I didn't want to be just an Italian snob. It is a .380 as well, good, my prefered caliber and it is lighter than the Berretta and at a price tag about $100 less you could do well. So why am I still an Italian gun slut? Because it's barrell is about an inch shorter and while this helps for weight/concealment, it drops accuracy and more importantly, the PPK only holds 7 rounds in it's mag. The S model at $50 more holds 1, count it, 1 more bullet. Now I don't know if you go into this sort of detail in your games but just for a difference of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100 there is a significant reason to buy Italian. I can't imagine even a stacked mag, if possible, would make the Walther better.

Lastly I recently read the James Bond book Dr. No. This is the one where he must retire his .25 Berretta and gets the PPK (snort) for daily carry and for heavy work a hammerless 38special Smith and Wesson Airweight. Declared the best gun in the world. I am now convinced Fleming knew F*** all about guns. I have owned a S&W airwieght for several years. Hammerless, the official name is the "Extended J frame" the nick name is the 'bodyguard' because it lacks the protruding bits to snag on a jacket as you draw it. The problem with airwieghts and the reason I doubt Fleming's gun sense was that it is described in the book as a weapon for when things go down but in fact it is for concealed work. It has only 5 rounds, meaning a smaller cylinder so it's flatter and it is made of very light materials (airwieght) so it doesn't make a bulge in your jacket pocket BUT that lighter material means there's nothing to absorb recoil and the damn thing kicks like a stone b****. which means acucracy goes all to hell. At the range I can, with lots of work get it good at 30 feet which shocked the guys there who said it's only for about 10 feet. So this is a gun with great concealment levels but accuracy and such goes all to hell.


Oh and for the bitter record, new mags do not go for $/ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5 each.

Got me, every pistol magazine in Canada has to be 10-rounds or less, period. Rifle magazines have to be 5-rounds, even if they're internal magazines.

Made for a problem for SMLE owners, let me tell you.

Dr. No was written in 1958 wasn't it? I could see the weapons cited in the book were good at that time. My history of guns is piss poor, so I have no idea. However, the character was a spy, so tactically, he used what was discrete. A "heavy weapon" for a spy would probably be a .38 at max. Anything larger or heavier would be a "cannon" for them & not fitting what was needed.

I'm more interested in what happens if I take 2 magazines, tape them together so I can get a quick reload out of them... like so. Still a simple action to load your gun?

Not quite. The double-stack magazine fad was introduced with Browning HP, and even some modern pistols (ie. Desert Eagle) use single-stack magazines. Magazine capacities for SR guns are hit-or-miss, though - I don't understand why things like Morissey Elite or Hammerli 620 use much less ammo than others in their class (ie. very sensible 12 rounds). Of course, not every future gun is a Glock, but come on. Five rounds in a heavy pistol? Eight in something that is basically a pistol-sized shotgun?
Oh well, Remington Roomsweeper gets replaced by OTs-62 in my campaign.

Thats quite simple, Elite is a light pistol firing heavy pistol ammo witch severly restricts the ammo capacity and Hämmerli is a target shooting pistol not a combat weapon so no need for a huge magazine capacity.

This probably has a pretty hefty Concealment modifier.




-k

If anyone in this thread is confused:

"Brady Mags" = Magazines that usually have a block inserted in the bottom to prevent holding more than 10 rounds. Sometimes they're manufactured smaller to only hold 10 rounds. Nicknamed after the Brady Campaign. You have to deal with these a lot in states like California or in Canada. You can often return these magazines to full capacity by simply removing the block (of course that makes them illegal in the states where it's required.)

Dont think I can add more without being all opinion-y so I'll leave it at that.

Since there isnt a lot of variety in the SR world and the game designers arent even close to gun nuts, so I tend to think of "extended clip" option being either a double-stacked magazine or a true magazine extension.

I catch Ray online from time to time I'll see if I can cajole him into some commentary. No guarantees, but it's worth a shot.

Actually, it's not Fleming's gun sense. That change was specifically caused by an American (I think?) who wrote him letters; it's sort of an interesting story. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Maybe I should write for them? What do you guys think?

There's also "Cripple Clips" (Magazines actually, but you can see why they used "Clip" in this instance) which are PHYSICALLY bent at the bottom to only allow ten rounds to be loaded. Due to the actual physical damage done to the magazines, I hear they're considered unsafe and often cause misfeeds. Rifle Magazines in Canada are restricted to 5-rounds, BTW. Even with internal magazines/tubes/etc, IIRC. Pain for all the folks that owned SMLEs.I'm right here. Commenting.

No offense shot but sometimes I think you just talk to hear yourself speak. And while maybe it's funny sometimes, sometimes it really does just clutter the board with a lot of "noise" that really confuses the "signal."

My question about writing for CGL and talking about Cripple Clips was Signal.

And I honestly thought you were talking about me. Which may either be noise or signal or jamming used to hide the actual signal.

I think it's meaconing, you spoofed the target location. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bah, forgive me. I'm a crass and crabby bastard at best. And after a few bottles of bad decision in a jar I should probably prohibit myself from posting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That said, I'll still see if I get Raygun to post over here...

Not me. I hit that gun-toting backwoods redneck every single time.

Hmm. He's, uh, standing right behind me, isn't he? [Hi, Ray!]

He probably knew more about guns that the people who get paid to write SR's gun rules. ...


Neither do rounds cost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 2 each.

Actually, you can't. They had to be virtually unable to be modified to hold the normal amount of ammo to be legally sold. Given a machine shop etc you could "fix" that, but it requires significant work.

There are mag blocks used for hunting that work that way, but they are different.

My take on this is that sure, you could go to Weapons World and get ammo for 25 nuyen a box, but then you have RFIDs in the bullet, RFIDs in the case (if cased) and scatterable RFIDs in the powder.

A smarter move is to go to this guy your fixer knows, who runs a small production line in the back of his pawn shop, and makes clean ammo for the shadow community.

Or just use that handy dandy tag eraser on the bullets.

Back OT-My experience with extended mags was to my Hakim rifle (which I've sold as 8mm Mauser ammo is expensive and on semi-auto--well you getthe picture). The 30rd clip jammed constantly-but that was due to bad manufacturing. It was much larger than the original 10 rd clip. I've also seen the Luger Snail-drums (there goes concealability).

As someone who shoots a lot in tactical style sports like steel shooting I actually prefer classic low capacity single stack mags. They are easy to reload, but double stacks hurt your fingers when you try to fully load them and being heavier are more likely to break when dropped.

Pluses and minuses to everything. Even Revolvers have their place, after all.

I've also found that they-double stack mags-also wear out quicker. Obviously unless you're doing a lot of shooting it's not as big of a deal.

Aren't pistols made for double-stack mags also have a thicker grip? I heard a few folks complain about a few double-stacked pistols being too large for their hands (Like the Para-Ord High Capacity version of the M1911A1.).

I've actually seen quad-stack mags for rifles.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)





-k

Depends on the gun. The 1911 with a double-stack feels really fat, but others dont. One of the principle exercises you do when buying a gun is find one that fits your hands. I carry a full-size Springfield Armory XD45 as my CCW and it feels nice.