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CanRay
post Jan 8 2012, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 8 2012, 08:30 AM) *
Technically the idea of Corporations is very old. The model for most of them was the Catholic Church. It led to craftsmen guilds, merchant firms and so on, all even before the Italian Renaissance. Entities like the British and Dutch East India Company actually highly resemble SR corporations in terms of sheer size, economic power and self-jurisdiction.
Hudson Bay Company, incorporated in 1670. Still around today, even if it is owned by bloody seps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Paul
post Jan 9 2012, 01:15 AM
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I just wanted to say I think Bull's post is very much what's been on our minds, collectively as a group lately-and it's very insightful.
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CanRay
post Jan 9 2012, 01:27 AM
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QUOTE (Paul @ Jan 8 2012, 09:15 PM) *
I just wanted to say I think Bull's post is very much what's been on our minds, collectively as a group lately-and it's very insightful.
Which one? The Alternative History one or the 'Net is Freedom and Anarchy while the Matrix is Corporate Controlled?
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Paul
post Jan 9 2012, 01:29 AM
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His first post in this thread. I haven't read the others yet. (I'm slow.)
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CanRay
post Jan 9 2012, 01:54 AM
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QUOTE (Paul @ Jan 8 2012, 09:29 PM) *
His first post in this thread. I haven't read the others yet. (I'm slow.)
You're not slow, your computer just has a special short bus.

*Headdesk* OK, that one hurt even me.
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Daylen
post Jan 9 2012, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 8 2012, 12:30 PM) *
Technically the idea of Corporations is very old. The model for most of them was the Catholic Church. It led to craftsmen guilds, merchant firms and so on, all even before the Italian Renaissance. Entities like the British and Dutch East India Company actually highly resemble SR corporations in terms of sheer size, economic power and self-jurisdiction.

Also take a look at oil companies in say, Nigeria; in the time of 1st ed, they were practically ruling the country, although that's been dialed back a bit in recent years.

Also, early SR was the time of Fukuyama's "The End of History", people thought the nation-state was passe, but it's definitely been making a comeback since 9/11.

The church is not much of a corporation, and certainly isn't a great early one, it was an empire that devolved into a simple religion. Of course SR corporate history has more to do with Zaibatsu and 19th and early 20th century industrial/corporate culture than most western economics (can't forget east india company).
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CanRay
post Jan 9 2012, 05:31 AM
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And Japan's usage of Sun Tzu in the '70s and '80s (And possibly earlier) to rebuild itself economically after WWII.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 9 2012, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 8 2012, 06:54 PM) *
You're not slow, your computer just has a special short bus.

*Headdesk* OK, that one hurt even me.



Heh... Way to go CanRay... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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3278
post Jan 10 2012, 02:27 AM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 8 2012, 03:04 PM) *
Yeah, there's also a pretty loose definition of "Native American" in use. Firstly, being Hispanic counts. Secondly, 'thin blood' still counts ... a 1/64 rate isn't out of the question.

This is explicitly mentioned several times in the NAN sourcebooks; this, coupled with much NAN territory not being as hard hit by VITAS, makes the population numbers given for various NAN holdings merely outlandish, and not utterly absurd. Early SR developers were very big on specific numbers, but not always on making sure those numbers were reasonable.
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ChewyGranola
post Jan 10 2012, 03:24 PM
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That is true, they attached a specific number to everything, from DocWagon coverage to percent of trolls in the population. I like vague-Ness, as in, there are bunches of Native Americans, and lots of orks, too.
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CanRay
post Jan 10 2012, 03:25 PM
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Cascade Orks! I loves that tribe!!!
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Wakshaani
post Jan 10 2012, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 10 2012, 09:25 AM) *
Cascade Orks! I loves that tribe!!!


One of these days, we'll have to do something with those guys.
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Warlordtheft
post Jan 10 2012, 04:11 PM
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On NAN populations:

1. Include Hispanics, part hispanics and so forth.
2. Any blood counts-even 1/100th suiox counts for something.
3. Metas were welcomed regardless of ethnicity in many NAN states.
4. Vitas passed the Natives held in detention centers.
5. The mid west/rockies is the least populated area of the contigious 48. If you ever look at population density in the US: it is heaviest on the coasts, and heaviest east of the Missippi and in California.
6. Bull pointed out there might be a larger population of natives/part natives than RL history.
7. Indian sympathizers were also welcomed (again somewhat dependent on tribe) as were back to nature types.
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CanRay
post Jan 10 2012, 04:27 PM
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And, also, Pinkskin Reserves. See how you like it, White Man!
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Paul
post Jan 10 2012, 04:57 PM
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None of which really adds up. Don't get me wrong, I want my Shadowrun world nice and crowded, and dystopic. But yeah as written the numbers don't quite Jive. This isn't to say it kills the game for me-it clearly doesn't. But when they write 5e it's my hope they'll find a different way of revising the timeline, and breaking loose from the current history. And maybe even some serious revision of how we approach the NAN and North America.
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pbangarth
post Jan 10 2012, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (ChewyGranola @ Jan 7 2012, 11:09 AM) *
If not, did the tribes just say "Hey all you honkies! Guess what? You're Native now!"

If you need to find a 'logical, sensible' reason for the state of affairs in SR, then this is actually not far from historical reality. In many North American First Nations, for centuries membership was a matter of practicality, rather than blood. Incessant warfare among groups, disease, natural attrition often led to shortages of manpower. Men and women were often captured and absorbed into the community to keep up the necessary numbers. So if a political change led to a need for adoption, even of whole groups of people, it would seem natural to do so.
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Wakshaani
post Jan 10 2012, 06:52 PM
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Yeah, there you dip into culture vs ancestry. Is a white guy who adopts Apache ways, amrries an Apache woman, and lives with an Apache tribe that adopted him an Apache despite having blue eyes and blond hair? This was a quaestion that the US fiddled with for decades (Centuries, really). In 1924, Virginia, for instance, had two racial classifications ... white and colored. If you had a drop of non-white, you were colored, no matter what that heritage might be.

Historical racism makes for some freaky reading, let me tell you.

On the other hand, you have people like moi, pudgy white southerners who have Cherokee (or similar) heritage, since, back in the day, white guys moved into native lands, married local (native) ladies, and had kids, which eventually formed the backbone of the expanding society. These days, despite being about as ethnic as Patton Oswalt, I *could* be classed as native due to ancestry, but certainly not by culture.

As of 2003, there are, roughly, 2,786,652 native Americans in teh US. Not sure how many in Canada. There are about 35 million hispanics according to the 2000 US census (And, again, leaving Canada out for now.)

VITAS didn't muck things up too bad, and you can imagine there was a population boom for the past two generations, giving, say, 10 million for natives (Some with ludicrously thin blood) and 50 million hispanics. Break that further down into assorted nations, then throw a dart at a board because it's all wild speculation at this point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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CanRay
post Jan 10 2012, 07:44 PM
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Friend of my family has no First Nations blood in him at all, but is legally considered a full-blood... Iroquois IIRC. He was adopted.
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Paul
post Jan 10 2012, 09:36 PM
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Conversely a guy I worked with at one point was shoe string Native American-he was whatever the requirement to get casino money in these parts is; which when added with his nine kids meant most of his income was tax free!
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Christian Lafay
post Jan 11 2012, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 10 2012, 07:52 PM) *
Yeah, there you dip into culture vs ancestry. Is a white guy who adopts Apache ways, amrries an Apache woman, and lives with an Apache tribe that adopted him an Apache despite having blue eyes and blond hair? This was a quaestion that the US fiddled with for decades (Centuries, really). In 1924, Virginia, for instance, had two racial classifications ... white and colored. If you had a drop of non-white, you were colored, no matter what that heritage might be.

Sounds like my relative. Just replace Apache with Chickasaw.
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Wakshaani
post Jan 11 2012, 01:03 AM
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QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Jan 10 2012, 06:19 PM) *
Sounds like my relative. Just replace Apache with Chickasaw.


Ayup.

If you've never read letters from the 1700's, up in New England, you should. There're many, many incidents of locals getting tired of working themselves to death and starving while being stifled and throwing off their belongings to go run into the wilds and live with the native tribes. It was a serious, serious issue, and many treatsies were written about how alluring the native life was.

The first Pinkskins. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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pbangarth
post Jan 11 2012, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 10 2012, 01:52 PM) *
Yeah, there you dip into culture vs ancestry.


Exactly. And since membership in NAN would be determined by the cultural means of those who would run NAN, means used for centuries by their cultural predecessors, it wouldn't matter one whit what the anglo boys on the other side of the border thought was appropriate.
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Wakshaani
post Jan 11 2012, 06:12 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 10 2012, 11:56 PM) *
Exactly. And since membership in NAN would be determined by the cultural means of those who would run NAN, means used for centuries by their cultural predecessors, it wouldn't matter one whit what the anglo boys on the other side of the border thought was appropriate.


Bingo. Some nations were far more pragmatic than others ... the Ute drove about *everybody* out, for example, while the Souix allowed reservations and the PCC was fairly laid back if you had magical or techological talent. I wouldn't feel bad saying that many of the nations have a slight-to-significant whitey majority, due to the open policy and usefullness of some of the folks they didn't drive out. In time, they'll adopt into the tribes properly and be absorbed into teh culture. At this point, we're, what, forty years after the fact? That's two full generations, and a third on the way. Lots of 65-75 year old guys that remember 'The War' and worry about the kids today, but red and white are growing up, side by side, speaking the same language and learning the same things in school. The kids, they don't much *care* what color skin you have... if you're Makah, you're Makah, and that's all that matters.
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CanRay
post Jan 11 2012, 06:14 AM
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Four or five generations for orks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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