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Neurosis
post Jan 15 2012, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE
all similarities to the Revelation Space novels are purely coincidental


Ye Olde Meldinge Plague..e. : )
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nezumi
post Jan 15 2012, 07:07 PM
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I really like Sengir's idea. I'm not running SR4, but I may use it in EP at some point.

QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Jan 15 2012, 09:11 AM) *
Having done a quick scan of both 2e and 3e this morning, the only penalty I see for taking cyberware in the books is an Essence hit and money spent. There are rules for social penalties in the 3e core, but those are prefaced with a note that GMs can apply them when they feel like it. A similar rule exists in Augmentation for 4e/A, in the same section as rules for cyberpsychosis.


That cyberware is bad is portrayed primarily in the language used, not in the mechanics. Unfortunately, SR has never really portrayed a 'cyberware drains your soul!' effectively, probably because mundanes already have a hard time keeping up with awakened characters. But yes, you're right that many players have always viewed cybernetic enhancement as a purely good thing, so taking it to the next level with transhumanism is just continuing that.
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snowRaven
post Jan 15 2012, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jan 15 2012, 05:53 PM) *
As the author of a shared science fiction universe (and the GM of the game that's been played there for the past six years or so) which is set about a thousand years in the future of Shadowrun where Nanotech STILL can't quite do all of the things it does in SR, I've always found the existence of such amazing nanotech by 2070 very problematic. I just don't think there's any way that's plausibly going to happen (maybe the future will really surprise/horrify me, I don't know). But I've never opposed the existence of nanotech in Shadowrun on the basis of transhuman themes in SR being the devil; just on the basis that 2070 seems way too early for mature nanotech to be plausible.


While I agree to a certain level, remember that a lot of the really nifty nanotech in SR came about after the dubious work of an AI...
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CanRay
post Jan 15 2012, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (snowRaven @ Jan 15 2012, 03:44 PM) *
While I agree to a certain level, remember that a lot of the really nifty nanotech in SR came about after the dubious work of an AI...
Hey, and look at what a bunch of "People" who just got citizenships in certain Megacorporations are!

Something tells me that Horizon is behind the Nano-Flareup of technology.
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ravensmuse
post Jan 15 2012, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 15 2012, 02:07 PM) *
That cyberware is bad is portrayed primarily in the language used, not in the mechanics. Unfortunately, SR has never really portrayed a 'cyberware drains your soul!' effectively, probably because mundanes already have a hard time keeping up with awakened characters. But yes, you're right that many players have always viewed cybernetic enhancement as a purely good thing, so taking it to the next level with transhumanism is just continuing that.

Basically, yeah. If from the outset of the rule system there had been rules that gave as much of a negative as you gained a positive for augmenting - a constant upkeep cost, regular checks for further Essence loss (your system is starting to reject it, the parts weren't installed right, etc, etc) then yeah, I probably wouldn't be raising such a fuss over this. But they're not - the closest we get are optional rules on possible social modifiers, and then 4e/A stuck in cyberpsychosis rules.

And I could see why the public would shy away from it too. Who would want that kind of upkeep, when they've got their corporation's well-being to think of!? But, if all it took for me, Joe Sinner, to be able to be stronger than a troll, leap tall buildings, and laugh off bullets is to go under the knife and have a little (probably illegal in my country / corporation) machinery stuck in there? Sign me up.

But without said rules or anything to enforce the atmosphere you guys are talking about, you're stuck poking your toe in the dust and saying, "yeah man, people totally like, don't like cyberware? Yeah." Which is why I was kind of flabbergasted last night.

If, by the way, our "transhumanism" complaint is in regards to nanotech - don't care, don't use it in my games, ignore its canonicity, bloogablooga.

QUOTE
If the word you'd chosen had been "gritty", I would've agreed with you, but we're talking about a series about an elite team of military police. Pretty much every issue is spent defending and upholding society—it'd be hard to be less punk if you tried.

~J

Right - society, but not the government. Remember, Kusanagi and Monkey Face get the team and the resources they wanted by basically holding out over the government that they know where the tapes are buried and showing that they're willing to pull them out into the light if need be. If ever a chaotic good (sic) group of spec ops runners there are, it's Section 9.

Not to mention that at the end of basically every permutation of the series the Major runs off as a hybrid AI child...
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Neurosis
post Jan 15 2012, 08:08 PM
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While I agree to a certain level, remember that a lot of the really nifty nanotech in SR came about after the dubious work of an AI...


Which is a plot thread I'd certainly like to explore, personally speaking. : )

QUOTE
Right - society, but not the government. Remember, Kusanagi and Monkey Face get the team and the resources they wanted by basically holding out over the government that they know where the tapes are buried and showing that they're willing to pull them out into the light if need be. If ever a chaotic good (sic) group of spec ops runners there are, it's Section 9.

Not to mention that at the end of basically every permutation of the series the Major runs off as a hybrid AI child...


I have to basically agree with the statement that GITS isn't at all punk, although a better way to phrase that might be: GITS is very, very Black Trenchcoat, and there are no mohawks of any color in sight. IMHO anyway.
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bibliophile20
post Jan 15 2012, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jan 15 2012, 03:08 PM) *
I have to basically agree with the statement that GITS isn't at all punk, although a better way to phrase that might be: GITS is very, very Black Trenchcoat, and there are no mohawks of any color in sight. IMHO anyway.


Agreed.
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 15 2012, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Jan 15 2012, 08:55 PM) *
Not to mention that at the end of basically every permutation of the series the Major runs off as a hybrid AI child...

So maybe she merged with a free sprite and got technomantic abilities XD
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ravensmuse
post Jan 15 2012, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jan 15 2012, 03:08 PM) *
I have to basically agree with the statement that GITS isn't at all punk, although a better way to phrase that might be: GITS is very, very Black Trenchcoat, and there are no mohawks of any color in sight. IMHO anyway.

Eh, I'll give it to you, I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Sengir
post Jan 15 2012, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jan 15 2012, 06:59 PM) *
Ye Olde Meldinge Plague..e. : )

Yep, only that while the Melding Plague acts like a malignant tumor (invades and destroys other tissue), my "recton virus" would be more akin to a benign tumor. No need to worry, just remove every last nanite from your system and don't ever touch that stuff again...
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Demonseed Elite
post Jan 15 2012, 10:12 PM
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This is a topic I could talk about for ages, but I'm going to actively try to restrain myself. Basically, I agree that the mood of cyberpunk is not really reflected in the mechanics, which makes it a difficult mood to sustain. And of course, because of the tenuous balance between the Augmented and the Awakened, any penalties inflicted on augmentation to make it seem less personally desirable needs to be balanced on the magic side of things too. It could be done, but it just isn't really. Not in previous versions of Shadowrun and not in the current version. So while I like to think of Shadowrun as a cyberpunk setting, it is difficult to maintain that spirit with the players. Especially when we readily admit here that players tend to be exceptions to the rule and yet are the way the players see the game.

The slide towards transhumanism is partially due to the metaplot aspect of Shadowrun. Technology must keep advancing in Shadowrun because the timeline keeps advancing. It's problematic, because I really do think Shadowrun has lost something with the advance of technology, but it was equally impossible to keep the timeline advancing without introducing technological advancement.

Beyond all that, the metaplot has gotten to be a difficult beast. I haven't written for Shadowrun in years, but even when I was we were constantly struggling with reconciling new material with the tangle of past characters and plot developments. It can't be getting any easier as the metaplot continues to grow. As controversial a topic as it is, I personally feel like Shadowrun needs a reboot.
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snowRaven
post Jan 16 2012, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jan 15 2012, 09:08 PM) *
Which is a plot thread I'd certainly like to explore, personally speaking. : )


Sounds good to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Paul
post Jan 16 2012, 12:30 AM
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Not to get too deeply involved in this discussion because frankly I have better things to do but I basically feel like "Transhumanism"-as people seem to be describing it in this thread-can take a a long walk off a short pier. Obviously that's a pretty simplified version of how I feel-but yeah I'm great with Shadowrun just writing nanotech out of the game with little or no explanation because it's a part of the game I could care less about. If I wanted to play Eclipse Phase...well I'd play it.
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GreyBrother
post Jan 16 2012, 01:04 AM
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QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Jan 15 2012, 11:12 PM) *
As controversial a topic as it is, I personally feel like Shadowrun needs a reboot.

I'm gonna be prophetic here: If that reboot should ever happen, Shadowrun dies because those who loved the Cyberpunk parts won't be enough to sustain it and those who like the Post-Cyberpunk flavor of 4 mistrust the system.

But lets see it happen. Maybe it will work. Though i'd rather see Pegasus do it.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 16 2012, 04:59 AM
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QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Jan 15 2012, 11:55 AM) *
Basically, yeah. If from the outset of the rule system there had been rules that gave as much of a negative as you gained a positive for augmenting - a constant upkeep cost, regular checks for further Essence loss (your system is starting to reject it, the parts weren't installed right, etc, etc) then yeah, I probably wouldn't be raising such a fuss over this. But they're not - the closest we get are optional rules on possible social modifiers, and then 4e/A stuck in cyberpsychosis rules.

And I could see why the public would shy away from it too. Who would want that kind of upkeep, when they've got their corporation's well-being to think of!? But, if all it took for me, Joe Sinner, to be able to be stronger than a troll, leap tall buildings, and laugh off bullets is to go under the knife and have a little (probably illegal in my country / corporation) machinery stuck in there? Sign me up.

But without said rules or anything to enforce the atmosphere you guys are talking about, you're stuck poking your toe in the dust and saying, "yeah man, people totally like, don't like cyberware? Yeah." Which is why I was kind of flabbergasted last night.



I think you've misunderstood their intent.

They were referring to the kind of fucked up psychology and pressures that force someone to install more and more cyber just to stay in the game. For example, Molly Millions was always cranking her body right up to the point of total biological failure just so that she could get work as a bodyguard. There certainly can be a flavor in that. It's not about getting some cyber. It's about that race to .01 essence and the question of what is driving your cyber-monster to that brink.

Instead of "Yeah! Check out this awesome new cyber I got!" it's "No one hires a gunner without wires, so I had to get them or I couldn't even make enough dough to pay for last year's reflex enhancers, but with my twitch up this high, I need an attention coprocessor to keep me from jumping at every little thing. How the hell am I going to keep paying for this..."
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 16 2012, 05:35 AM
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QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Jan 15 2012, 05:04 PM) *
I'm gonna be prophetic here: If that reboot should ever happen, Shadowrun dies because those who loved the Cyberpunk parts won't be enough to sustain it and those who like the Post-Cyberpunk flavor of 4 mistrust the system.

But lets see it happen. Maybe it will work. Though i'd rather see Pegasus do it.


The transition from 3 to 4 was a sort of reboot.

The problem is that the massive upheval happened in the 2060s with the Crash 2.0 and all the civil wars. Meanwhile the game picked up in the 2070s.

That upheval is where SR happens. That's the meat.

Society collapses everywhere. The mechanisms of control fall to pieces and anarchy presides while culture rebuilds. SR4 just started too damn late, after control was reestablished and society picked itself up off the floor, only to become stronger, friendlier, and more cohesive and secure than ever.


Why was Bug City awesome? Because it was a DISASTER and you could be right in the middle of it. The Arcology Shutdown? Same deal.

Why is the war! in Bogata not awesome? Because they're fighting with TANKS and BOMBERS. This is two major forces coming together to kill each other. No one wants to be in the middle of that. Going into an active warzone to do crimes is like breaking into Lonestar HQ to steal bullets.
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bibliophile20
post Jan 16 2012, 05:36 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 16 2012, 12:35 AM) *
Going into an active warzone to do crimes is like breaking into Lonestar HQ to steal bullets.


Sigged!
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Fatum
post Jan 16 2012, 08:55 AM
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I'd like to chime in on believability. Shadowrun is not in any way a believable setting - hell, a spirit of fire has an energy aura that produces essentially free energy, only paid for with drain; LAVs fly defying all laws of physics, etc. Nanites are not all that different in that regard.
The main difference between cyberpunk and traditionally understood transhumanism, the way I see, is that while the cyberpunk may be no less or even more technologically advanced, the tech is not used for the benefit of all, but for further enslaving the humanity.
Take, for example, real life. Sure enough you can now download the records of islamist rappers, but what do you know about what is actually happening in the world? We have a wordlwide network capable of instant information relay, but we mostly use it for pictures of kittens. New sources feed us with well-crafted propaganda (or let's just say "they're slightly biased"), and all in all the bandwidth is filled with entertaining rubbish. Meanwhile, wars are thought around the world we neither know nor particularly care about, military campaigns are launched with hidden motivations, and nothing of that gets adequate coverage.
Same way it goes with cyberpunk - sure you have great tech advances, but Matrix is full of corp snitches and honeypots, cyberware is slowly turning you into an amputee with lumps of dead matter strapped on, nanotech gives 99% of users degenerative neurological diseases in the long term, etcetera. But Shadowrun is not going down that road at all right now. While the previous editions (including early 4e) made a point of discussing the unpleasantness of essence loss, the dangers of being awakened and such, AE glances over all that in favour of "neat tech advances".
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Paul
post Jan 16 2012, 09:21 AM
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I think we were just discussing a reboot the other day. If handled correctly I think it could be successful.
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Fatum
post Jan 16 2012, 11:12 AM
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Hm, why would it be? Shadowrun is a setting which is firmly grounded in old metaplot, so no dissing that. Revolutionizing the ruleset is hardly ever for the good, either...
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Blade
post Jan 16 2012, 11:48 AM
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Shadowrun has started as a cyberpunk game, but it had pretty soon started to mix a lot of different styles, from gutterpunk to high-fantasy/low-cyber and pretty much everything in between. Even in the first novels and the first campaigns, the setting varied a lot from one writer to another.

So now you have many different playstyles, and the universe (and even rules) has been kept vague in order to support them all. The problem is that it leads to a pretty bland game if the GM doesn't choose his style. And even then, he'll have to do all the work to keep his player in the same atmosphere.

But if you were to release a new edition with a clearly defined style, you'd lose a big part of your player base.

That's why I think the "multiple settings" approach would be the best. You could have:

- Shadowrun Old School (Neuromancer) with a 80s cyberpunk feel, PCs are gutterpunks doing their best to survive (or stick it to the man) in a wild world. Ideally this would be set in the 40s, when having just one cyberware implant was enough to give you an edge, when being a metahuman meant more than just prejudice, when the world still hadn't recovered from the Crash and VITAS and was a pretty wild and dangerous place.

- Shadowrun Classic (Robocop?), closer to 1st/2d edition feel, set in the 50s/60s, a more stable world, more cyber and magic, metahumanity better accepted, Japan everywhere, except where there are Native Americans, more professional PCs (though still some dose of punk) but still a pretty cyberpunk feel, with little to no bioware, nano and so on.

- Shadowrun Post-Cyberpunk (GITS), set in the 60s/70s, with a stable world (except for the occasional big threat), cyberware leaving the way to bio, nano and genetech, metahumanity and magic is something everyone is familiar with and PC are professionals who shoot people in the face for money. Less Japan, less NAN.

But this would probably be too much work for a single line.
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Cheops
post Jan 16 2012, 02:01 PM
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A system like Crafty's Spycraft 2.0 (or its more polished Fantasycraft) would probably work pretty well for Shadowrun. The problem with a lot of the modules and add-ons for SR is that it is more difficult to determine what to include and what to exclude for certain flavors or eras. Frank Trollman was dead on with his idea that every piece of ware and accompanying grades should be listed with date of availability so that if you were using SR4 to run 2050's you could easily exclude the new cyberware. Something similar should be done with playstyles.

For instance, a lot of the stuff in Augmentation, namely Genetech and Nanoware, transform the flavor of the game dramatically. As does a PC mage with Magic 6. Fantasy Craft has a whole Campaign/World building chapter where it lists what to include and exclude from the ruleset in order to achieve the feel you want for your game. So in SR if you don't want living coral/wood buildings and clean energy sources you pick the "Run Down Capital" and "Environmental Collapse" campaign tweaks which gives everyone (players and GM) a thematic idea from the get go and allows the GM to constantly reasses his game in order to avoid style drift or to embrace it (eg. you could have fun as gangers in the Barrens who transform their neighborhood from Run Down Capital into Working Capital and go block by block cleaning everything up).
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Sengir
post Jan 16 2012, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops @ Jan 16 2012, 03:01 PM) *
So in SR if you don't want living coral/wood buildings and clean energy sources you pick the "Run Down Capital" and "Environmental Collapse" campaign tweaks which gives everyone (players and GM) a thematic idea from the get go and allows the GM to constantly reasses his game in order to avoid style drift or to embrace it (eg. you could have fun as gangers in the Barrens who transform their neighborhood from Run Down Capital into Working Capital and go block by block cleaning everything up).

Problem is, that would require a general agreement on how the 6th world looks like, how violent/run-down the cities are, et cetera pp.. The way it things are (and have been since 89) is that you can pick up three books and get four answers at least.
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Demonseed Elite
post Jan 16 2012, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Jan 16 2012, 03:55 AM) *
Same way it goes with cyberpunk - sure you have great tech advances, but Matrix is full of corp snitches and honeypots, cyberware is slowly turning you into an amputee with lumps of dead matter strapped on, nanotech gives 99% of users degenerative neurological diseases in the long term, etcetera. But Shadowrun is not going down that road at all right now. While the previous editions (including early 4e) made a point of discussing the unpleasantness of essence loss, the dangers of being awakened and such, AE glances over all that in favour of "neat tech advances".


That's always been one of the odd disconnects about Shadowrun though. Even when Essence loss was talked about being bad, a lot of players readily gobbled up new cyberware for their characters. They were playing transhumanists, essentially, in a cyberpunk world. And if a gamemaster leaned heavily on the story costs of cyberware, it benefited Awakened characters.

I do absolutely agree that Shadowrun's edginess has dulled, though. I'm just not sure there's any easy solution to that.
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Demonseed Elite
post Jan 16 2012, 04:00 PM
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And yes, I know a reboot is controversial, largely because of the metaplot and edition nostalgia. I still think it would be the best thing for the health of the game, even knowing it would probably piss off some people (when has an edition come out that didn't piss off some people?). It would also have to be handled very well and I'm not convinced it could be at this stage.
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