They also had a helicopter and a SWAT team in T2.

Did you quote the right person, as i'm not in anyway saying anything like that, i'm just acknowledging the fact that giving stats to weapon most often results in few guns that are better then other.
I don't personally care to min max to that degree and mostly choose guns for my build based on a whim and/or what i envision that particular character would want to carry.

Generally, these guns in SR are all but identical anyway. Players are very sensitive to numeric edges, and some (Alpha) are indeed significantly better. Again generally, though, a gun is a gun. This is particularly true when you full mod them out; at that point, the 'chassis' advantages really get diluted (in most cases).

Why use different firearms when the stats are so similar?

Style. That's what! And that's why I loves me my gear porn books! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The reason why there are about 30 different flavors of handguns sold in real life isn't because everyone that doesn't carry a Glock 19 is stupid. It's that there are a lot of subtle things about guns that make it more appealing or useful to one person that another. However, all the handguns all pretty much do the exact same thing. They have about the same effect when you shoot someone with them. If you are using highly abstract system like SR always claims the only difference SHOULD be is the name. Oh, and it would be nice if the rifles did more damage than pistols.

Uhh...rifles do do more damage than pistols.

There are a few odd exceptions, but by and large Heavy Pistol damage tends to be 5P, Assault Rifle damage tends to be 6P, Shotguns 7P, Sport and Sniper Rifles average 8P...the only major issue I have with it is that SMGs get the short end of the stick (being the same base damage as a Heavy Pistol and losing a level of AP), but I don't think anyone's ever claimed the system's perfect.

I mean, base weapon damages kind of making some sense in comparison to one another was one of the biggest things I think SR4 got right. Compare it to SR3, for instance, where SMGs had about one-third less Power than Heavy Pistols, and even Assault Rifles had a lower base damage code than King Handgun™.

Meanwhile all the PDWs have lower AP than a heavy pistol...

Which I just said. Yeah.

SMGs fire 9mm ball and should do less than a handgun whose caliber starts with a .4

PDWs fire specialized bottleneck cartridges designed to be armor-piercing. That shows a basic misunderstanding of the weapons purpose as well as action.

There are some SMG which fire .45

Not really, if some SMG:s had better AP then others and same damage, those would make all other SMG:s utterly pointless.
Witch is why i hate the fact that MP7 got an extra point of AP. Gun Heaven is technically nice as it add:s more realism with the higher damage carpani and the better AP PDW, but it's infuriating that only those specific guns of those types get this special treatment, that PDF should have so included an optional errata for weapons from other books to be used if one includes the guns from that book to the game.

it's a toss up. The Thompson M1 fired .45 bullets but the impact of the bullets was somewhat offset by the fact that the recoil led to massive muzzle climb- so yeah it hits hard, if you hit with it. I know it's iconic for the likes of Audie Murphy or think of MP40 Clint Eastwood used in where Eagles dare means it's a killer but the M-1 Garand was a much more useful weapon. I think we have what I call "Rambo syndrome' that we like to see burst of fire while in fact single shots would be more accurate.

There is no significant difference in outcome between someone being shot with a 9x19, 9x18, .40, .45 etc. SMGs have a significantly higher MV due to having a much longer barrel. But they are still shooting pistol bullets in the low Mach 1 velocity range. So modeling SMG's as a more accurate pistol would be perfectly reasonable.

"Pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles."

"You use your pistol to get to your rifle that you shouldn't have been away from in the first place."

A few pieces of wisdom I've learned from a variety of sources.

Vaguely combining some of the above, I've long thought a good (and pretty simple) 'fix' for the SR4 DV/AP codes would be be to make some dramatic changes in AP stats. This way, you can make weapons much better against armor, without raising their DV insanely. You can allow things to 'hurt' armored targets without auto-killing them, or always doing massive stun. The same principle works for vehicles, where the 'kill or nothing' effect is even more noticeable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) AP is a great mechanic, if we take advantage of it.

Not in SR there aren't, unless Ingram and Uzi decided to get all wacky on us.
There are a few PDWs and a few carbines, which Gun Haven actually got statted alright.

I'd actually put a PDW as 4P -2 AP since it's built to stab.

I would like to know where you get you info on fictional guns calibers, not that it really matters for this point as Gun Heaven has MAC-10 that the picture marks as a .45ACP version.

Maybe they just retired all the historically popular 9mm versions in a world where people wear body armor to work?
The likely answer I suppose?

And then every heavy pistol uses a magnum cartridge?

Not impossible, and it explains the capacity on most of them.

The more I play, the more I agree with this.

I could even see ceramic core armor piercing rounds that penetrate armor well, but because of the reduced mass and no deformation do not create as large a wound. These would be small arms rounds designed to puncture engine blocks and get through vehicle armor. I've considered this as another alternative round to APDS that gives higher armor piercing

I also would like to see caliber rules. Because when it comes to damage in most cases a 9 mm handgun is a 9 mm handgun. A Glock and a Beretta operate differently and feel different in your hand, etc. But once they hit the target, there's not really a difference. There can be modifiers for snubnose concealed carry weapons and firing rounds out of longer barrells like rifles, but really I would like rules to build my own weapons based upon cartridges and the class of weapon.

It would also be nice to see strength or body play a role in recoil reduction.

Well, there's the Strength-to-RC rule in Arsenal. You could adapt it to include Body, as well. Honestly, it's way too easy to get RC already, so be careful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And some SMG's that use 7.62X39 and 5.56mm--which is where you run into a RL and SR discrepancy. Statting these variations is that is could be endless, leading to an unlimited supply of gun porn for Canray. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I was thinking of adding more recoil for low scores. So the opposite of recoil reduction. Because I don't think anyone really worries about it for most things now anyway. I'll have to get Arsenal eventually.

Sounds good to me. Like I said, I feel like there should be more recoil, and what you propose is the same math in reverse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually, I'm for an Assault Carbine class between SMGs and Assault Rifles.

But I've talked to folks and they've stated that they're trying to keep things simple to placate a larger audience that doesn't know about firearms. Considering my group whose eyes glaze over when I talk about 10mm versus .45 ACP, I actually figure this is a good way to go, even if I'm personally offended.

That said, I'm still upset over the Clips Vs. Magazines issue, but know that I'll never win that argument.

There is a HUGE difference between being shot by a rifle round and pistol round. A SMG bullet will be stopped by most soft body armor. Plus it's a pistol bullet.

A short barreled rifle isn't a SMG. It's far more lethal. A rifle round will go through your soft body armor, through your chest and through the back armor. Unless it's moving fast enough to fragment, at which point you won't have a hole in the rear panel, but the trauma surgeon will have more work.