that's true but you're still limited to two points of armor and a gismo. I'm not saying that +2/2 armor stackable with worn and an orientation system isn't super cool especially since you already spent 5BP (out of 35) for restricted gear anyhow you might as well pump the availability up to 20. It's smarter than trying to build a cyber arm for your ork.

If I seem bitter, I am.

Trying to build a character concept with one or two limbs is work intensive and usually heartbreaking. I don't try anymore. I only post to encourage GM's to be liberal when a player shows up with a cool chrome boy concept.

But the stats are easier to achieve since the components require less miniaturization (manufacture is what drives the price, not materials), hence it would be conceivable to make a STR 8 troll-sized arm at the same price as a human arm with STR 3.
As an additional in-universe reason, the average troll has a lower income and is far more likely to have a "physical" job than the norm. Which means there is a significant market for affordable body augmentation in XXL, and that argument is far more significant to the corps than "ew, trogs are gross".

Again, the avail is realistic: there are fewer trolls, and their 'average' arms are significantly stronger (etc.) than human 'above-average' ones. Materials science doesn't care about your relative strength.

I did mention that above, Sengir. I'm not convinced, but it's not impossible. I also said that I'd prefer they got more mod slots, so that extra space *is* going somewhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I certainly never said anyone was motivated by "gross". I also agree that none of this (none of SR4 at all, in fact) takes the possible craziness of market capitalism into account. Because of that, we can't either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) After all, a company could do *anything*: sell at a loss, raise prices to imply quality, subsidize troll items for any number of social-engineering reasons, etc. We can't begin to guess, and any hypothesis can be supported equally.

Building a good cyberlimb character isn't intuitive in SR, but SR4A is the first edition where cyberlimbs weren't a white elephant. The problem with using them is that cyberlimbs aren't good at making an already good combat character better besides cyberlimb armor stacking. However, cyberlimbs shine at making a poor to average combat character to a good combat character. This makes cyberlimbs a good deal for riggers, faces, hackers, and others who need a cheap way to be effective at combat.

Some examples of cyberlimb usage can be found in Umaro's archetypes. Cyberarm users he created include the Negotiator, the Ronin, the Mercenary Rigger, the Generalist, and the Combat Hacker. If you want a full replacement build, you can look at the Bad Enough Trog. There's also an augmented mage and mystic adept that use cyberlimbs, the Burnout Combat Mage and the Transhuman Mystic.

I love to get cyberlegs, jumping jacks, and various other Capacity goodies.

Where did I say anything to the contrary? My point was that a STR 8 limb for a troll can be built cheaper than a STR 8 limb for a human, since the troll limb allows for bigger actuators and everything.

Oh yes, it would also eat some more material, but that does not matter since easier manufacturing outweighs more material by a huge margin. The big dream of the aerospace industry is being able to lathe a complete airframe from a block of Aluminum, because the price of a plane-sized block of Al is nothing compared to what they would save if they would no longer need to do a gazillion rivets.

No, I was agreeing with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We have to make some assumptions, though, and I'm not sure to what extent it's true that "a STR 8 limb for a troll can be built cheaper than a STR 8 limb for a human". It all depends. The troll limb also has to still be as durable and tough as the human one, so they can't skimp too much.

It is actually easier to make a big thing as durable as a small thing with the same capabilities

I don't know that's always the case, depend on what 'easier' means. A 10mm sphere with a 3mm shell is a lot more durable than a 1m sphere with a 3mm shell, for example. I was saying that a troll cyberlimb presumably uses more (even more than the increasing volume:area ratio) of the same materials to be equally durable… it's just bigger. I could be wrong, so that's fine; the main idea is that there are many variables in play, so it's not as easy as just saying, 'troll limbs should be stronger for free'.

I do think bigger arms could have more capacity, that would be fair and reasonable, if a slight complication of the rules. I don't think torso or skull should have more in comparison to limbs, but I'd be okay with 'armor-only cap' for them. I feel like the 'customize' rules already allow strong individuals to get strong arms without wasting slots, but the point of limbs shouldn't be to let Str1 Bod1 people get huge stats for free, nor for corps to be 'fair' to trolls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think the slots for synthetic limbs make not much sense - i can fit an SMG into my natural arm, but not into a mechanical one with some coating?

Trolls getting a break on cyberlimbs sounds nice. What would stop a human from getting a troll cyberlimb? They have more reach, better strength and body, and are comparably priced? That's inviting munchkins.

Other than the fact that it'd be dragging behind them everywhere they tried to walk? Would seriously overbalance them and be next to impossible to control? And the fact that I, as the GM, would have it invaded by an AI who would then strangle them with their own arm, rip itself free from the body, and then go on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge?

...and would require extensive modifications to the rest of ytour body to be able to utilize that extra rech and sttrength (or a troll-sized cybertorso, which would require troll-sized legs...)

Or you could just get used to walking like a gorilla.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k

There was a fluff blurb back in one of the old cybertech books (I forget which one) which went on about what it takes to make a cyberlimb better. It talked about how you can't just make a limb stronger, because the added weight of the more powerful servos slows the limb down, so you have to upgrade it to make it quicker, which adds weight, which means you need more upgrades, etc etc etc... Making a troll arm, to be as powerful as it is, likely requires heavy grade items, while still allowing for expansion. A str 8 human is nearly maxed out. The arm doesn't need to be ready for much in the way of future upgrades because it's pretty much as good as it's gonna get. A str 8 troll arm on the other hand, needs to be able to support the structure, weight and capabilities of significant future upgrades (all the way up to 15 strength, which is almost double the max of the human). That takes a lot of extra structure.

Not to mention that, as others have pointed out, items that are produced less cost more, because you lose out on the benefits of mass manufacturing. So likely the costs balance out.

Or it could be as simple as "The devs didn't want to have to come up with individual costs for every piece of gear for every metatype ever." I know I'd not put that kind of work into it. It's too much work for too little return. What does it add to the game, really?

That would be awesome, KarmaInferno.

Human in a troll body. Now that would be an interesting character concept if you could shoehorn it into the existing rules.

In theory the cost of custom cyberlimbs already accounts for losing out on mass manufacturing benifits. As the grade of cyber advances from Alpha to Delta it's also assumed to be less mass produced.

Saying that a troll's custom made beta grade arm with body 7 and strength 7 is exactly as labor/resource intensive to make as a human arm with the exact same stats makes sense for the game but little else.

Once you've eliminated the special unique snowflake cost most other factors IMO lean towards troll cyber limbs being cheaper.

Miniaturization. Given the same performance profile you usually pay more for smaller electronic and mechanical devices then bigger ones.

Materials. In precision manufactured goods the cost of material in a finished product is negligible in comparison to the labor and technical know how that goes into it. One of the reasons why my iPad cost as much as a new mountain bike.

I don't think this is what we're saying, though. For one thing, that limb for the human is beyond the limits of Customized, right?

I would be very carefull with bigger = cheaper. This might be true for some cases but not in all.
Actually it is only true for electronic devices.
Would you think a big car is cheaper than a small car? Even if they have the same engine?

In any case, what we're talking about is giving trolls, orks, etc. free points. Now, we *could* say that the weaker limb models for them simply don't exist on the market, but personally I'd rather have more choice.

It's probably marketing, anyway. If the big strong troll arm cost the same as the human one, the consumer would balk; the human would think he was getting screwed, and the troll would think he was getting something cheap.

Depends

Sports car with a V-6 verses family sedan with the same engine. Yes in that case I'd expect to pay more for the smaller car. Of course even with the same engine the two vehicles will have profoundly different performance so its not exactly a valid comparison.

Small SUV v mid sized SUV. No you'd pay more for the larger SUV. Of course in SUVs size is a feature. Mid-sized versions actually outsell smaller models. Also small SUV's usually have smaller engines so you'd actually have to pay a premium to get the engine the same size. It wouldn't make the cost equal, but it also wouldn't make the performance equal either.

Really cyberware shouldn't be compared to something like a vehicle because both price and size are more dependent on role than each other.

I would compare cyberware to products meant to be held, carried or moved around regularly. Camping equipment, personal electronics, power tools. Also I would compare between brands rather than two models from the same brand. So for instance I would ask. Given two electric drills with identical features (equally powerful, versatile, and durable) wouldn't you expect the smaller lighter one to cost more?

Well humans can have a natural bod or strength max of 7 with a purchased advantage. Your right it's not possible by the rules for a PC to have both though.

I feel like it's a stupid question, but would anyone be satisfied by tweaking the Customize costs? If 1500¥/point is excessive, is there a number that would be more acceptable, while still charging something for something? (This is effectively the same as SR3, where dwarf, etc. got stronger limbs by default.) This solution would also let elves get their Agi cheaper, which seems fair.

I forget what any of this had to do with the OP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The biggest problem (for me) is the aviability for a troll sized custom limb - you just cant buy one at chargen. One fix could be that the aviability only rises after the custom stat is higher then the average for the metatype (e.g. a troll STR7 BOD7 cyberarm would have the same aviability as a human R3 Cyberarm).