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> Transhumanism or superheroes - without essence cost, how hard would the game break?, When money and BP/Karma are the only factor...
Yerameyahu
post Feb 11 2012, 10:47 AM
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Too right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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GreyBrother
post Feb 11 2012, 01:14 PM
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I have no problem with killing essence. Heck, i proposed it in another thread.
Eclipse Phase offers unlimited implants for every body. Cyberware, Bioware, Nanoware, Genetic alterations. There are still things my starting character doesn't get because its too expensive and i need the points to buy other stuff.
Then again, Eclipse Phase isn't really concerned with balance, which is in my eyes a pretty silly concept in a cooperative game, administrated by a Gamemaster.

So yeah, shoot essence out of the window, raise the cost of implants a bit, adjust availability and its fine.
I mean, how much karma do you have to get that the hard cap makes troubles in regard of mages?
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hobgoblin
post Feb 11 2012, 02:13 PM
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Between deltaware and cyberware suites, you do not miss out on much anyways.

With those calculated in, a sammie can squeeze in almost 10 essence worth of ware.
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Irion
post Feb 11 2012, 02:37 PM
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@hobgoblin
Yeah, but those cost a lot of money...
And still you have to choose between high money and high essence cost. If you make essence for fee...
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hobgoblin
post Feb 11 2012, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 11 2012, 03:37 PM) *
@hobgoblin
Yeah, but those cost a lot of money...
And still you have to choose between high money and high essence cost. If you make essence for fee...

Money is easy to come by, karma however (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Irion
post Feb 11 2012, 03:01 PM
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@hobgoblin
Depends on your game... Yes, if you throw a billion at your players, it is easy to come by. Thus this begs the question why they should continue running, if the just can retire for around a thousand years.
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nezumi
post Feb 11 2012, 03:17 PM
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It would put mundanes and mages on more similar advancement tracks. The cost of a mage buying the next power point is less, compared to the cost of his last power point, than the cost of a mundane buying his next piece of ware, compared to the cost of his last (due to beta/bio/whatever having such a steep markup).

If everyone can buy standard ware, the only limiter is cost, which is pretty flat. Plus, I can adjust it easier. If the mages are getting too powerful, I only need to throw a little more cash at the mundanes (as compared to stupid amounts before).

I don't think I'd have an issue with it, or at least with reducing essence costs significantly. CP2020 had 'essence', but still let you buy full cyborg bodies.
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Irion
post Feb 11 2012, 03:51 PM
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The point is, you are tweaking the powerlevel significantly.
Every time you do something like that, you should ask yourself the question why...
Such systems tend to end up (see vampire) as beeing completly GM regulated. Everything you want to buy, everything you want to learn has to be approved by the GM or you could break the system much too easy.

And at that point, you should ask yourself, why you use "rules" in the first place...
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GreyBrother
post Feb 11 2012, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 11 2012, 04:51 PM) *
And at that point, you should ask yourself, why you use "rules" in the first place...

Thats a pretty good question.
And in my opinion, there's no reason for availablity rules at all. Several games handle equipment without such shenanigans and do pretty fine, so why bother? To hold up some illusion of balance in the metagame no one really cares about? Whats important is, whats going on on your table.
The current system is clunky anyhow, especially when you want to use different settings than Seattle.
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Feb 11 2012, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 11 2012, 04:51 PM) *
The point is, you are tweaking the powerlevel significantly.
Every time you do something like that, you should ask yourself the question why...
Such systems tend to end up (see vampire) as beeing completly GM regulated. Everything you want to buy, everything you want to learn has to be approved by the GM or you could break the system much too easy.

And at that point, you should ask yourself, why you use "rules" in the first place...

Well... this I don't agree with, because the overall powerlevel of the PCs will just fall into a perspective within the game world. Every system can have breaking points, present SR4A isn't inherently safe.

The question that remains for me is what to do with different grades of ware?

Basically what you could do is this:

Instead of changing essence cost with ware grade, make better grade mechanically better.

For instance:
For every piece of used ware, for every point of rating involved or dice bonus given in a given roll, you gain 1/3 of a rolled 1. This must be marked and pre-added up on the sheet. So if you have 3 points of used ware used on one roll, you gain one roll of 1, which counts towards glitches.

Regular ware has regular effect.

For every die added by ware of alpha-grade that contributes to a roll, you gain 1/3 of an automatic success. Per full 1 automatic success 2 dice are deducted from the pool.

For every die of beta-ware that contributes to a roll, you gain 1/2 an automatic success. Per full 1 automatic succes 1 die is deducted from the pool.

For every die of deltra-grade ware involved in a roll, remove one die from the pool and gain one automatic success.

Automatic successes are considered 6s when exploding dice are rolled.

Example:

Shooting with alpha-grade smartlink and alpha-grade bioware MT3, you have 5 alpha-grade dice. You gain 1 success and only get a bonus +3 dice to the pool. Adding an alpha-grade reflex recorder you would gain 2 successes and 2 dice.



alright this gets to be a very different game by now, and only really works with the revisions to dice mechanics suggested previously on these boards: Opposed tests with threshold are a must.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 11 2012, 04:24 PM
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While I don't think anyone considers the Avail rules perfect, that's very different from rejecting the very idea of Avail. I think it's an important aspect for modeling the difference between having the money for something, and actually being able to get it. It's not "some illusion of balance in the metagame" (I'm not even sure what that means), it's an aspect of the game world.

Eclipse Phase, while a totally different (post-scarcity) world, *does* have an 'Essence problem'. You do see characters walk out of chargen with a Christmas tree of every implant they had cash for (which is why starting cash is limited). And those characters *are* significantly more 'powerful' than normal people (the difference being that the GM can destroy their body on a whim). If you object to Essence limits, you should equally object to 'artificial' cash limits; they do the same thing.
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Feb 11 2012, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 11 2012, 05:24 PM) *
While I don't think anyone considers the Avail rules perfect, that's very different from rejecting the very idea of Avail. I think it's an important aspect for modeling the difference between having the money for something, and actually being able to get it. It's not "some illusion of balance in the metagame" (I'm not even sure what that means), it's an aspect of the game world.


Availability rules are extremely important as rules, because if you don't have them you end up in "pretty please can I have a cookie" territory.

QUOTE
Eclipse Phase, while a totally different (post-scarcity) world, *does* have an 'Essence problem'. You do see characters walk out of chargen with a Christmas tree of every implant they had cash for (which is why starting cash is limited). And those characters *are* significantly more 'powerful' than normal people (the difference being that the GM can destroy their body on a whim). If you object to Essence limits, you should equally object to 'artificial' cash limits; they do the same thing.


You could say Essence is just a thing like Capacity. Fine. The capacity rules are also iffy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

Maybe you could also make Ware slots? Like every body has a muscle slot, a bones slot, limb slots, spine slot, eye slots, etc. then the char sheet could come with a nifty full-page pictogram with spaces for ware in them.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 11 2012, 05:01 PM
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Yes, both of those are basically the same thing as Essence rules, I agree. EP doesn't have anything like that, but it's also a post-Singularity far-future transhumanism-in-space game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Essence is probably the simplest of those kind of capacity/slot rules, and you do see it in other games (I'd consider Alternity's cyber-cap rule an 'Essence' type). Slots would be funny, sort of like Deus Ex 2 (?), but I kind of like the fact that there are direct tradeoffs between Wires and limbs, for example. There's not a Wires slot that minds its own business, it affect the whole system and your choices. With slots (and I love a pictogram as much as the next guy, yay Diablo, D&D, Angband, etc.), the choices are limited more to 'where do I spend my money?' and 'what *kind* of muscle slot mod should I get?'; so it's a slightly different dynamic.

You'd also get rid of the grades/ratings distinction there, because the only way to upgrade a slot would be to make it *better*, not smaller. While I see that's sort of like the implant revamp you proposed above, it is indeed a major overhaul.
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GreyBrother
post Feb 11 2012, 09:23 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 11 2012, 05:24 PM) *
While I don't think anyone considers the Avail rules perfect, that's very different from rejecting the very idea of Avail. I think it's an important aspect for modeling the difference between having the money for something, and actually being able to get it. It's not "some illusion of balance in the metagame" (I'm not even sure what that means), it's an aspect of the game world.

To elaborate on my quoted phrase: Balance between different "classes" is in my eyes only in the eyes of the playerbase as a whole (the metagame) not In-Game and shouldn't be enforced. This isn't a tabletop wargame like Warmachine or your favorite Warhammer, its a cooperative game.
My argument is: What use do we have for balance? None. We are all players and i wouldn't play with a GM i can't trust to deal with arising issues. Enforcing some kind of balance is kinda silly when you have one group of players who think magic is fine as it is and others nerf it into the ground because they are a walking utility belt.

The availability rules play into this. Why can't the GM have the final word on whats available and what not? Yes, you may have the money to buy something, but when its simply not available where you are? I don't see anything bad about that, as long as the GM is reasonable about it.
What about players, who abuse the system? The old munchkin argument "There, i rolled everything, the dice say i found it somewhere and i have the cash. Why can't i have my Ballista? I don't care that we are in the middle of the yakutian Wild." (Extreme example, watch out)

I'd make it optional and be good with it. To me, the Avail Rules feel more like taken from a videogame to simulate a scarcity and falls on its nose to deliver.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 11 2012, 05:24 PM) *
Eclipse Phase, while a totally different (post-scarcity) world, *does* have an 'Essence problem'. You do see characters walk out of chargen with a Christmas tree of every implant they had cash for (which is why starting cash is limited). And those characters *are* significantly more 'powerful' than normal people (the difference being that the GM can destroy their body on a whim). If you object to Essence limits, you should equally object to 'artificial' cash limits; they do the same thing.

Theres not really a problem there. As you (and i) said, starting cash is limited and every character in Eclipse Phase is more powerful than normal people because they already are in gengineered bodies.
But the issue is not, that players wanting more implants and thats bad. The problem is, that essence as a mechanic - to simulate how much your body can take - brings in a hard cap for the abilities of mundanes. A cap Magicians and Technomancers don't suffer.
You could argue, that games never last that long, or that characters of that powerlevel retire or stuff, but i know some players who'd love to do a High-Power Campaign, where charakters start with a big load of karma.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 11 2012, 09:46 PM
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Oh, I didn't realize you were talking about this whole issue as magic vs. mundane. I hardly think being an RPG removes the point of balance, though, and not between classes. Balance is between every player, the game world, and so on. It keeps people near the same level because that's what's fun. Being cooperative doesn't mean that balance doesn't matter, and there's huge amounts of evidence at every table for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The GM basically can't be trusted to deal with Avail on the fly all the time (nor does he *want* to, what a pain). That's the reason any rules exist in any game: so everyone knows what they can do, instead of making (or letting!) the GM do everything.

The point of Grades is to make Essence effectively not a hard cap. Instead, it just interacts with the cost curve to make it much steeper as you go forward. I'm fine with that; it actually gives the players somewhere to go. In EP, it's pretty easy to start with nearly everything (gear and weapons, too), and there's nowhere to go from there (which is why it's not really combat game).

I honestly consider the concerns of 'epic' players unimportant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If you want that, you have to design the game around them specifically.
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3278
post Feb 12 2012, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Feb 11 2012, 04:04 PM) *
And in my opinion, there's no reason for availablity rules at all.

I like that they're in the game; it gives those who need such rules something to use, and is easy enough to ignore for people like you or I who personally have no use for them. I think one of the reasons my group has always liked Shadowrun is because it's so easy to ignore rules you don't like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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GreyBrother
post Feb 12 2012, 01:10 AM
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Yerameyahu: Fair enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I can respect your opinion and the way you express it in words.

3278: Yeah, my GM hates me for arguing in ignoring certain rules. In a proverbial sense, i always have to make a hearing out of it, with witnesses, sources, figures and diagrams and whatnot ^^
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3278
post Feb 12 2012, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 11 2012, 09:46 PM) *
Balance is between every player, the game world, and so on. It keeps people near the same level because that's what's fun.

That is, by the way, not true for all groups. It's true for many, I'd even say most, but there are a large number of groups that don't find balance any more fun than imbalance.
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JanessaVR
post Feb 12 2012, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Feb 11 2012, 05:10 PM) *
3278: Yeah, my GM hates me for arguing in ignoring certain rules. In a proverbial sense, i always have to make a hearing out of it, with witnesses, sources, figures and diagrams and whatnot ^^

Alas, you don't have my GM - she's bribable. She also still owes me money. You'd be *amazed* at what I can get away with during character creation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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CanRay
post Feb 12 2012, 04:11 AM
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I fully admit that I take bribes as a GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 12 2012, 07:18 AM
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Nothing is true for *all* groups, 3278, but there's a reason rules and mechanics are so popular. If most people didn't care about balance, we'd just have freeform. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Even if what's fun is powergaming, you have to have balance so you know what you're beating, hehe.
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Irion
post Feb 12 2012, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 12 2012, 08:18 AM) *
Nothing is true for *all* groups, 3278, but there's a reason rules and mechanics are so popular. If most people didn't care about balance, we'd just have freeform. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Even if what's fun is powergaming, you have to have balance so you know what you're beating, hehe.

Thats one thing. The other part is, that playing with rules makes things easyer.
Freeplay means nobody of the players has to know any rules, but the GM has to limit every action on the fly.

@GreyBrother
QUOTE
To elaborate on my quoted phrase: Balance between different "classes" is in my eyes only in the eyes of the playerbase as a whole (the metagame) not In-Game and shouldn't be enforced. This isn't a tabletop wargame like Warmachine or your favorite Warhammer, its a cooperative game.

There are no classes in Shadowrun.
I know what you meant, but the argument is not really true for classless games. There everybody can walk through this door.
For example: In D&D you could just give the fighter two addition hitpoints per level ( 1-12 hitdice) it would make the fighter stronger without ever effecting any other class.

You half the essence costs for implants, it affects EVERYBODY and not just the SAM.
For example at this point (following the standart rules) it would be more than stupid not to take ware as an adept, mage or technomancer.
You drop the ressonance loss for technomancers, if using ware, every "matrixchar" would be a technomancer.

QUOTE
The availability rules play into this. Why can't the GM have the final word on whats available and what not? Yes, you may have the money to buy something, but when its simply not available where you are? I don't see anything bad about that, as long as the GM is reasonable about it.
What about players, who abuse the system? The old munchkin argument "There, i rolled everything, the dice say i found it somewhere and i have the cash. Why can't i have my Ballista? I don't care that we are in the middle of the yakutian Wild." (Extreme example, watch out)

Mhm, I guess thats how most GM handle it. Let the player say what he or she wants, give it a role and then your ruling or skip the role.
No you do not have to make a roll to find a dress since you are a medium build woman and standing in the middle of a mall.
You might want to make an edge roll to see if you just found "the dress" on the "everything must be out"-sale.

Using standart rules for everything, for me, breeds the impression that you actually do not care about what players do.

QUOTE
But the issue is not, that players wanting more implants and thats bad. The problem is, that essence as a mechanic - to simulate how much your body can take - brings in a hard cap for the abilities of mundanes. A cap Magicians and Technomancers don't suffer.

It is an issue of resources. If you can just buy more and more implants your power will grow almost linear. While a power grow should be self reducing. (Going from strength 2 to 3 is far cheaper than 4 to 5. Same increase in power but the second is much more expensive)

This makes magic self regulating at about magic 12, depending on your game. Magic 13 is nothing you would really go for, costing 65 points of Karma. (Unless you give your players around 3000 Karma. But at this amount, the sam would have nearly all the active skill in the book on 6 and every natural attribute 8 (If you let him buy normal and surge advantages).

So the problem would not be the "unlimited" growth (karma) of mages but the rather limited groth (karma) of sams. And it would have nothing to do with implants.

QUOTE
You could argue, that games never last that long, or that characters of that powerlevel retire or stuff, but i know some players who'd love to do a High-Power Campaign, where charakters start with a big load of karma.

And what would the implants change?
The problem with mages is not that they have a unlimited progression possibility. It is that increasing one attribute gives you progression in everything.
And as soon as you start using a force 10 combat sence spell, quickend to you with (depending on how you interpret the edge rules) with 12 or 20 hits, stuff gets out of hand.
Because at some point the rewards you may gain from quickening outshine the drawbacks big time. If this point is reached (high power) the rules do just break.
Make 400 BP characters and offer them 3000 Karma to go with the "in game rules". Allow 1 Karma to be changed into 5k or even 10k. Allow unlimited essence for all I care. It won't change the problem...
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snowRaven
post Feb 12 2012, 02:16 PM
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If you remove Essence you have to either remove all 'capacity' stats for cyber replacements, or add 'capacity' to the natural body.

It doesn't make sense for the flesh to be able to take more augmentation than a cyberreplacement equivalent.
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Irion
post Feb 12 2012, 02:30 PM
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Did not think of that. Getting rid of essence makes cyberlimbs useless..
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Jekolmy
post Feb 12 2012, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 12 2012, 08:30 AM) *
Did not think of that. Getting rid of essence makes cyberlimbs useless..



If I remember correctly, wfb at the moment. Each full cyberlimb provides one extra HP box, which is always useful.
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