I've never seen 'Elemental damage' really defined for damaging spirits, anyway.

F10 isn't 'competitive force', it's game-breaking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"Competitive Force" is F6-F8 at my table. The Yama King just served as an example of how purchased module encounters can go awry if you include poorly thought house rules.

It's true, the question is more nuanced than we've said. I just don't necessarily think F10 spirits should be running around, or that S&S is the solution to that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ofcource electrical damage is elemental damage, but thas has no effect on how ItNW works(only magic and critter powers gets to ignore it)

I agree that it is a side effect of the streamlined rule system, but I don't think it is a bad thing. Just like flamethrowers (the mundane kind) and firebombs are effective, why shouldn't electricity be? IMHO the weird thing is that SR's SnS Tasers do something comepletely different than RL Tasers.

Kill it with fire is even a popular trope.

Whether it is a good thing that fire works against fire spirits, is a different question.

@Mäx: I agree.

It should be noted that Neurostun and other chemical attacks have a large flaw. The fastest chemicals (Immediate) doesn't take effect until the end of the combat turn. Thus your KOed man walking can totally shoot you back, sound the alarm, cast stunball, or anything else before he goes down and often can do so multiple times.

As for SnS themselves, Shadowrun is just an unfixable mess and thus it doesn't really matter that SnS rule. My only problem with them is that in the grimdark future everyone shoots tiny tasers at each other all less-than-lethal like all the time. There's little effective difference between a "kill no-one" mission and a "killing is okay" mission. Even a "kill everyone" mission doesn't look too much different (since you can just throat cut or overflow stun).

That's what I mean, Mäx. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Elfenlied
The Yama king is a force 9 spirit with the armor of a force 7 spirit.
So lets put it frankly, he has no bases in the rules what so ever.

(Not to mention he has ESS 16, however that should work...)

The point is, there shouldn't be spirits above force 8 or 9.

Just cast Combat Sense on top of a force 9 spirit. Than have fun.
This "Thing" will have around 18 dice on reaction tests, it will attack you with a DV 9 ranged elemental/mana attack/spell and it may have magical guard and/or is concealed.

(Not to mention, that spirits of men could rulewise cast such spell on theirself and would NOT suffer sustaining penalties. )
(Force 9, spellcasting 9 would translate in about 6 hits!)

Honestly, SnS is not fixing that. This thing will just kill you before you even get the chance to engage.
Materialising, suprise test, combat starts, boom.

Now tell me, how to "compete" with such a monster!

(The only good thing is, that free spirits do not get the natural spell power...)

Yeah, a force 9 spirit trying to walk up to you and hit you in the face, thats something you can deal with.
But again only if you are very, very good. (This thing will still have around 12 dice on reaction tests)

I do not know about your table, but I am under the impression that dicepools for suprise test are mostly lower than 20 (which is around the base line for force 9 spirits).
If this thing puts an combat sense with 6 hits on top of it, you are looking at 26 dice...

This means most of the SAMs would eat one unresisted attack. With elemental or even mana damage at a DV of 9, thats more than enough to smoke them.

@Hida Tsuzua
True. The only time you are loading life ammo, is for assassination. If you need to get deep into physical overflow with one or two shots/bursts.

@Irion: Like I've pointed out above, common spirit opposition is usually F6-8 at my table, and Tasers/SnS give you a fighting chance against those. Wide, full bursts will allow you to hit them reliably, even with Combat Sense up. Spirits require a complex action to materialize/possess, and the default spirits do not have any stealth skills, nor can they stealth while they materialize. So at best, it's rolling 8-10 dice for infiltrate, while giving the players -8, so it's around 50/50 for an augmented to spot the spirit before it acts.

I do not say that such a fight is easy. It's not supposed to be. F6-8 are hard hitters, designed to go toe-to-toe with experienced Runners. Tasers/SnS give mundanes a way to contribute to such a fight without being dead weight.

But does that make *sense* is the point. Given powerful spirits, is it reasonable that S&S is *the* effective counter? Should they be? (No. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) Especially given the results on non-spirits (S&S is 99%-always better everywhere).

I'm fine with powerful spirits requiring rockets, anti-materiel, cannons.

Same, that just seems to fit the lore alot better. Magic beats magic... until you pull out the big guns.

Just to put stick n shock into perspective. I know we're talking about a F10 spirit, but the idea that a typical go ganger with maybe 6-7 dice at shooting with stick and shock rounds in a machine pistol could take out a force 3 or 4 spirit irks me a bit. A force 4 spirit should be plenty tough for most jobs and should make a go ganger wee in his synthleather racing suit.

@Elfenlied
Again materialising would call for a suprise test. Because if you would handle this differently, the defending party would always be on the winning side.
If I storm a room, I also need to spend action. If I kick in the door, I also need to spend actions. If I descent from a robe, I need to spend actions. And so on.

The spirit has (if you look at it) the best possible suprise situation. He can choose the position freely and he knows the postion of every enemy. While the enemy has no idea where he is going to pop up.

Just look what it would take for somebody to swing with a robe, shoot the window and "suprise" the enemy. A cool action in my book.
But if I force him to take one complex action to jump and the next one to shoot the glass and the last probably to land, he will get shot.
(This means the only way to open combat is to move very slowly to your target and make the last step with a non-action...


I look at this a bit different. SnS brings down everything around a force 7 spirit. Be it runner or spirit.
This kind of sucks.
The point is, there isn't any in game explanation why SnS works great agaisnt spirits and it works normally against everthing else.
It works great against spirits, because it works even better against humans.

@Belvidere
The main issue with spirits is, that they are two easy to call.
Every out of chargen mage is able to call a force 7 spirit without risking much. (The worst situation would be, that he needs to spend edge, in order to reduce drain)
This spirit will cause around 4-8 dice of drain and you will need around 12 dice to be on the safe side of getting a service.
And still, short of maxed out streetsams, it pritty much can kill everybody.
A agility 6, automatics 4(+spe+smartlink+tacnet 2) =14 dice soldier?
Give him a visibility reduction of 2 dice, some cover and he will have a hard time hitting the spirit at all.

Actually, unless you want to encourage Magicrun, concealable, mundane weaponry that can counter spirits should be available, especially since powerful spirits can be deployed where rockets, anti-materiel and cannons are not feasible (pretty much 99% of the time). I'm not fine with certain archetypes being unable to contribute in an activity that consumes the better part of playtime. So yes, it is reasonable that S&S is *the* counter to spirits, unless you introduce other counters at your table.

As for other ammo being lackluster, see my suggestions above.

As I said, the problem is with the spirits, and it's not okay for another problem (super S&S) to counter that. That's been my whole point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The goal is to have things make sense, not for arbitrary counters to exist. It's not Starcraft.

Why is the goal not for things to make sense and for non-arbitrary counters to exist?

Honestly, though, trying to fix this one issue will quickly force you to try and fix everything else because of all the interlinked rules messes. This is probably a "save it for 5th edition" problem.

Note: I realize that the following interpretations of the rules are based more on legacy of the setting and my interpretation of the intent of the rules rather than literal interpretations of sometimes poorly-edited RAW. My players tend to be okay with this, because I try to be consistent. Your mileage may vary.

I just apply the base stun damage from the taser to the spirit like any other normal (i.e. nonmagical) weapon.

I also don't apply the armor mods. Immunity to normal weapons acts like armor mechanically, but isn't armor. Heck, some spirits are barely physical. Those certainly don't stop bullets. (This leads to shotguns being very popular to fight spirits - Our group doesn't have a problem with this. Shotguns are traditional for fighting nasty magical things.)

Tasers get good armor penetration because they don't have to perforate your liver to hurt you - just like drug delivery systems. They merely need good contact. Cloth or leather should not be a problem. Plates are a problem. This is why hard shell military armors are proof against all 0 DV physical attacks, like needles,splash pellets, or taser darts.

Tasers work by messing up your nervous system temporarily. Spirits don't have a nervous system. So I'm being kind by allowing the stun damage to work at all, simply because the user really really wants it to (remember, with spirits, wishes CAN be fishes - a good reason for a street sam to not tank his mental stats).

If tasers are a problem in your game, probably the best thing to do is to deny them the increased DV due to net hits. No matter how good of a hit you get, the same charge is getting shot across their neurons. If the shooter is worried that the resulting shot is too weak to bring someone down with 1/2 armor applied, then I'd suggest going for the called shot to bypass armor.

Here's an entertaining link from a taser manufacturer: http://www.stungunweapon.com/faq.html I find the repetitive questions about whether it'll work on bears funny. (The official answer is: "We haven't tried it, but we don't reccomend it - It might get mad.")

… Both those things are the goal, Umaro. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's the arbitrary counters that aren't the goal, especially when the consequence is that S&S is better always everywhere. Two wrongs don't make a right, etc.

As for why SnS can hurt spirits, one thing is that in older editions, elemental effects used to bypass a spirit's immunity to normal weapons. While this no longer the case now, elemental attacks are still really good against spirits due to their -1/2AP effect. SnS rounds do electricity damage which is "elemental" according to SR metaphysics so that's why SnS works so well against spirits.

@Lantzer
This was the first answer... Later on they only said the have no info but "hickers carry them"...

Honestly, the very thought to go at a grizzly with some 8 AA batteries, seems to me like suicide.
It is not that this thing is just big. Wild animals are, well wild. Meaning they are a lot thougher than you would suspect.

I guess it is possible honey badger (around 10 kg) would still be a severe thread for a human. And I would not but it past that little freak to ignore the taser and go for your throat (or your balls, as the rumor has it).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c81bcjyfn6U

I read that one. My earlier comment was based on their discussion when they tested it on a buffalo.

Animals generally have a lower tolerance for electricity though, or so I've been taught at least...

Which was that, again?

SR4 walked away from the grimdark (if it was ever that, i never really got the w40k vibe from it) style and more towards heist style professionalism.

If only you played at my table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.

+2DV -2AP