For performers, Charisma would probably play a role. For artists, I'd be tempted to link it to INT or WILL.

I must protest... It is not ALL about the Carnage and Destruction... At least 2 of the characters want the Notoriety that goes along with it, so they TELL everyone they are the ones responsible for that Carnage and Destruction. I guess that they want to be feared. One of these days, possibly even soon, the Oni is going to quietly fade and just let them get whacked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

While I agree to some extent with your IRL sentiments, your post smacks of intellectual snobbery to me.

In particular your contention that most modern commercially successful artists only have skill rating of 2-4 seems pretty arbitary and snide to me. Even boy/girl bands such as the Spice Girls and Backstreet Boys (showing me age, I know) would have pretty high skill at choreographed dance and some degree of singing tuition, even if they couldn't do ballet or sing opera. As for those stinky populist writers like John Grisham or whoever, I would argue that it takes skill to write page-turning thrillers, even if it is not the highfalutin style of the type of literature you enjoy.

Back to the game, Glyph was right when he said that that to represent a 'famous' artist in SR you would want to represent it by the Fame and Day Job qualities (a case could also be made for Born Rich to represent income from royalties). I would add to this a high connection/loyalty promoter/manager/agent.

Please also note that in terms of SR4, the crunch of the Artisan skill notes that the more hits you get from your DP, the more impressive your art seems (at least technically) to the observer. So at least in-game, higher skill = more hits (on average) = better appreciation from casual NPC observers.

Skill ratings from SR4:

2 - Novice: Has a solid grasp of the fundamentals, but shaky on more complex yet still routine procedures. (Trade apprentice)
3 - Professional: Competent at general skill tasks. (Journeyman or entry-level professional straight out of college)
4 - Veteran: Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease. (Mid-career professional; 4 or more years of experience)
5 - Star status; your expertise gives you a reputation. (Top scientist. Published in peer-review journals.)
6 - Elite: The 'best of the best'.
7 - Legendary: Someone who's expertise outranks all others in all of known history.

Honestly, how many people of today do you feel fit in category 6 and 7 when it comes to the actual creation of art?
Many will have a 5, but that should be reserved for those artists who have a reputation for being really talented, skill-wise - not just popular.

Remember than anyone except the most general of artists will have a specialization in their field and quite possibly a few knowledge skills to back them up.

Taking your example of boy/girl bands - yes, they'll likely have 3-4 specialized to dance, with the occasional 5 for those who do it a long time. Almost no one at an age of 20-25 is likely to have higher than 4 (and even 4's may be rare - 3's are stated as standard skill out of college for your chosen profession, while 4 is stated as 4 or more years of experience), because of simple lack of experience. Those who studied music or art from an early age may reach a 4 comparatively early.

2-3 is most likely only found on very young famous people, or within fields that don't require a high degree of technical expertise. 4s will be quite common. 5s should IMO be reserved mostly for those with at least 10 years experience in their field, who have become known for great skill in their art. 6s and 7s are for those few who are true superstars AND highly skilled.

The thing to remember about skill ratings in SR is that most professionals only have a 3-4. Higher ratings than that should be reserved for those who clearly has a higher degree of skill than the professionals. In the rulebook, skill 4 include NASCAR drivers, Combat veterans, Politicians. Skill 5 goes to most major Pro sports Athletes, Elite military, Corp vice-presidents.

I haven't read Grisham for quite awhile, but he's likely to have high ratings (4-5) in a number of relevant knowledge skills. Now, arguably it takes a certain amount of skill to write a gripping novel - but a great part of that is creative ability, imo - and that is something I feel isn't very present in the Artisan skill. You can have a highly skilled writer who can't create interesting and engaging stories if his life depended on it.

I'm not sure why the table in the book is so obsessed with skill ratings when what matters is the total pool. A character with a 7 skill and a 3 stat is no better than a character with a 4 skill and a 6 stat. I like how stats tend to represent natural talent and skills represent learning, but at the end of it all it's the pool that matters.

True, but… relevant? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

One solution to this is to use the 'Grittier Gameplay' optional rule of limiting successes to Skill x 2. This also helps with keeping Pornomancers in check (or anyone else with a ridiculously large dice pool, for that matter).

Honestly, it doesn't. That limit mostly just hurts *low* skill people (which include a subset of 'people stacking huge DP mods onto a low skill).

Well, we're going on about the difference between an artist with a 7 skill and a 4 skill but in the system if their pool was 10 they'd be functionally the same.

As long as we agree that Artisan is a 'technical ability' skill (like all skills), the DP is just the DP.

Not every great artist is going to be commercially successful. Sometimes there almost seems to be an inverse relationship between artistic ability and fame... not always, though. What we need is an SR4 version of the Message Points (social commentary of a song) vs. Money Points (commerciality of the music) from Shadowbeat.

@Snowraven
Well argued, I see now why you think skill 2 for a starting-out performer (before spec) should be reasonable by RAW.

I am with Mercer in that I *hate* that skill table. It just doesn't make any gamesense if people are making CharGen characters with legendary skills who happen to be eking a living in the shadows and only starting to build a reputation for themselves. I double the numbers and go Skill + Stat, and even then these are only guidelines at my table, but I know by RAW this is a heretical position.

Still, it saves me turning down characters with skills much above 4 ...

You and Glyph are right about the creative side of things, though. A high Artisan skill merely describes technical prowess and says nothing about the creative content of their work.

I use the skill x 2 mechanic (with an additional +1 per 3 bonus dice, round up above 0.5) in order to encourage players to round out their skill-set. The one-trick pony will still be awesome in his/her chosen field, but if they have stuck a lot of their BP eggs in one basket, they will suck eggs at anything else ...

I'd have thought that using Artisan as a base skill for creative ability would be fine, but instead of linking to an attribute, link it to a relevant knowledge skill. That way, you can have a character who is artistically gifted (which of course some people are, and some people not) but without the know-how, would be relying on their skill alone.

Etiquette is a bit different. As a GM i'd be tempted to throw in some DP mods on the fly, depending on circumstances and specialisation.

Maybe so, Midas, but that's the opposite of the stated purpose (rein in hyper-specialists). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd think you'd want to encourage people to have many skills at 1 or 2, and god forbid they try to default.

This is not a problem with the RAW Table in the least. It is a problem with players making Legendary characters who happen to be eking out a living in the shadows, and only starting to build a reputation for themselves. Maybe they should make a character that is more plausible, and not a legendary monstrosity that makes absolutely no sense. It is a problem with Players saying "I want to be the Best" and then having no idea what actually makes someone in that field "The Best." *Shrug*

Keep hammering on that drum, TJ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I know... Just trying to make sure that everyone still pays at least some attention to the Drum... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I heard it from so far away that I signed up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think you're right. Too easy for players to max out skills and attributes during chargen. You would think a no mark with a legendary trigger finger would probably have been head-hunted into a Knight Errant sniper team, making far more money, arguably more securely.

Then I guess the old 'no other option for the SINless' argument rears it's head.

*shrug* Then house rule that no skills can be over 4 at chargen, etc. A lot of people like runners to be stars. Some people do low-BP/street-level games. None of this changes the skill-vs.-DP issue; Skill 5 is only 1 dice better than Skill 4, which doesn't make sense with the fluff.

Agree with this also. Either or both of the skill level descriptions and/or the scope between rank 1 and 7 need looking at.

I know for a fact if I asked my players to limit their characters to skill rating 4 at gen then I would have a mutiny on my hands.

I'm a proponent of skill ranks being re-scaled 1-12 (or 'unlimited', limited by prohibitively accelerating karma costs), which is some ways can get at this issue. But that's a significant house rule that requires other changes.

Personally, I have mostly skills at 1 (or 1+2) at chargen, and rely in high attribs and gear to make them usable DPs (yes, I know this 'wastes' BP). It all depends on your table and game.

See, that makes sense, especially if you just completely ignore the skill rank table's quite OTT descriptors. They are kinda patronisingly cringey anyway.

Thank you Midas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In hindsight I should probably have included a 'going by the skill table' somewhere in the "2-4" post...









I agree with you all regarding the discrepancy between skill table levels and starting characters. A couple of hundred karma down the line, and starting characters can easily surpass most published npcs when it comes to pure numbers and efficiency.

In 1st and 2nd edition especially, starting characters were competent, but still smallish fish even in their own small ponds. With SR4 starting characters are on par with most elite units, and the BP system even encourages pushing PC speciality toward world-class levels. I mean, you can easily design a character that is only 20-30 karma away from being one of the best in history in their chosen field (though he'll be very much a one-trick pony, of course).

The skill cap creates a problem with spirits as well, since they don't have a hard cap - it's fairly easy for a PC to acheive the skill necessary to summon Force 8 spirits - beings who surpass the skill of the most talented, best trained humans throughout all of history (in multiple skills, to boot). Experienced PC summoners even have the potential to summon spirits on par with adult dragons.

But then again...imagine the dice-demands of a Shadowrun 4 without skill caps... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

A skill of 6 is not legendary. A 7 is "best of the best". A 6 is "best of the rest". A 3 is a starting professional - "competent at general skilled tasks". A rating of 3 in unarmed could be a seasoned street fighter, a first degree black belt from a moderately decent dojo who has done some tournament fighting, or a boxer trying to break into the pros. A rating of 5 in automatics and edged weapons is a special forces operative, or someone as trained in violence but not as versatile, such as a street samurai who fought his way up from the Barrens, an underworld enforcer, or a someone from a corporate black squad. A rating of 6 is one of the above who has specialized in one area, to the extent that they are as likely to be known by that specialty as by their vocation. In other words, he isn't just Bob the special forces guy - he's Bob the sniper, or Bob the martial artist.

TL/DR version: it isn't hard to justify a skill of 6 for a starting shadowrunner - unless you feel that your character should genuinely be a "beginning" character, in which case lower skills would fit. But I have always seen starting shadowrunners as being people who have been doing this for awhile, so I have less problem giving them a high skill and having it seamlessly fit within their background.