 My Ally Spirit, What are your opinions? |
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 Mar 1 2012, 08:08 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-October 11 Member No.: 39,548  |
I want to create an ally spirit for my mage to support him a little with spellcasting, resisting drain but also with combat etc.
So here are the stats for my Ally spirit: Karma costs are: 5 x 8 Karma = Force 5 3 x 5 Karma for skills = Spellcasting, Counterspelling, Flight Total Karma cost = 55 Karma [ Spoiler ]
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Mar 1 2012, 08:57 PM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,655 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
Honestly, I think forcing an ally to rely on a spell for combat is a waste of a power. For 22 karma more, Corvina (bottom of the spreadsheet for her stats, or scroll to the far right for karma-cost breakdown) has a broad suite of powers useful both in and out of combat, and when pressed can hurl lightning bolts all day long with no Drain. Conjuring an ally is high in the running for the most awesome thing you can do with a magician; why limit your ally to just resisting your drain and spamming Manabolt?
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Mar 1 2012, 09:08 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-October 11 Member No.: 39,548 |
I was thinking that manabolt would help blasting other spirits instead of going into astral combat. But since I'm not an experienced magician yet, I can be wrong about that thought.
Also elemental attack lightning for example is resisted with half impact armor + body with base damage = force While the manabolt maybe has drain but can be overcasted and is resisted only with willpower. That means a force 5 ally spirit does 5P + nethits with elemental attack against body and half impact armor. Lets take a standard grunt that has 8 ballistic armor and 4 body, that adds up to 8 dice to resist the damage, while the manabolt spell can be overcasted to force 10 doing 10P + net hits from spellcasting and is only resisted with willpower (and counterspelling if another mage is around) while only doing 5P drain (Force / 2) that can be easily resisted with 10 dices down to maybe taking 1-3P damage. Normally a grunt has only about 3-5 willpower to resist a 10p + nethits damage. Seems like manabolt seems the better choice with the additional risk of taking drain when overcasted. What would you suggest for powers instead of manabolt? I didn't think about the drain issue and the "free" elemental attack. But casting heal could still be usefull. I just took "innate spell" to save Karma since it costs a lot to create an ally spirit. |
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Mar 1 2012, 09:45 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,655 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
An ally costs a lot because it's worth it. My advice is to accept the cost and drop the karma for a really kickass ally.
As far as what to replace the Manabolt spell with: Accident, Confusion, Fear, Engulf, Concealment, Influence, Movement... really, any of the more useful powers. Your ally's fire aura already makes it pretty dangerous in a scrap. If you really want it to have a ranged attack, you can give it Elemental Attack, but really, there are almost always better uses for a spirit's time than blasting. Your point about Manabolt versus Elemental Attack is mathematically sound, but consider this: will your ally be willing to regularly overcast and suffer injury? Obviously, the question of how much independence your ally has will depend heavily on your GM, but you should expect to treat your ally as a character in its own right. Finally, as an aside, I'm curious how you gave your ally the Innate Spell power in the first place, since Christian Theurgists can't conjure any spirits that have that power normally. |
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Mar 1 2012, 09:50 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-October 11 Member No.: 39,548 |
About the innate spell, our GM is very open minded in that aspect and let's us summon almost any spirit.
Also my character uses christian theurgy but a custom version of it. I asumed my ally spirit would act like my mage .... he's known for overcasting whenever he can hehe Rarely I get injured by enemys, most of the time it's overcasting like crazy that fills up my damage meters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But considering your points, it really makes sense that I won't force my ally spirit to endanger itself with overcasting etc. |
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Mar 1 2012, 10:27 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
My votes would be for Movement and/or Concealment. Those 2 can save your butt a lot more often than an extra manabolt or two.
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Mar 1 2012, 10:58 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
I do not want to be called a downer or a powergamer, but just but 24 Points more in it and take a force 8 spirit.
It is just around 3 times as good... Second, spells which are gaind as a spirit power have RAW no sustaining penalty..... I do not think I have to say more. |
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Mar 1 2012, 11:00 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-October 11 Member No.: 39,548 |
Having a force 8 ally spirit would be nice, but don't forget I need to summon, bind and convert it to an ally spirit while surviving the heavy drain of it ... I think a force 8 could be the end of my mage if I roll dices without a lot of nethits ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
- First I need to make a logic + arcana (force x 5, 1 day) test for the ally formula. Force 5 threshold = 25 Force 8 threshold = 40 -Then I would need access to a magical Lodge equal or higher the ally spirits force. - Summoning + Magic against the spirits force . The spirits hits x2 is the draindamage I need to resist. - Binding the spirit is binding + magic against Force x2 and drain is 2x the hits the spirit made with the dices - Doing this without taking a break and eating all the draindamage + modifiers. - Force of the spirit exceeds my mages magical attribute so draindamage would be physical This sounds like suicidal to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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Mar 2 2012, 01:48 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
I'm fairly certain that Allies like other spirits CANNOT overcast spells.
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Mar 2 2012, 03:06 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-October 11 Member No.: 39,548 |
I just checked and there seems no mention in RAW that spirits wouldn't be able to overcast.
Only thing I found is the following: Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner, Force is limited to the spirit’s Magic) But by RAW that would mean that if you teach your ally spirit a spell, it can overcast it. But when the spirit has the power "innate spell" it wouldn't be allowed to overcast it. |
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Mar 2 2012, 06:21 PM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
@The Wrestling Troll
Yes, but given the benefits that those innate spells have... QUOTE - Summoning + Magic against the spirits force . The spirits hits x2 is the draindamage I need to resist. - Binding the spirit is binding + magic against Force x2 and drain is 2x the hits the spirit made with the dices - Doing this without taking a break and eating all the draindamage + modifiers. - Force of the spirit exceeds my mages magical attribute so draindamage would be physical Depends on what you bring to the table. Edge? Aspected BC? (At least 2 you may get out of lifestyle) (+2 dice for Magic and Drain) Centering Initation? (+iniate dice for drain) Power focus? (+ (mostly) 4 dice to magic) Bound spirits helping resist drain? (Spirits of man keeping increase Attribute X sustained?) (For maximum cheeze: Just bind the spirit in a place with BC (not aspected). You will loose 1 Point of Magic and 1 Point of your drainpool per raiting, but the spirit will loose (temporaly) one point of foce. Lets say you have magic 6(spellcasting 6) and he has magic 8. Aspected BC 2 would mean you get 14 dice and he gets 16 dice. Regular BC 2 would mean that you have 10 dice and he has 12 dice.) |
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Mar 2 2012, 08:35 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,655 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Mar 1 2012, 04:50 PM)  About the innate spell, our GM is very open minded in that aspect and let's us summon almost any spirit. Your GM must be extraordinarily lenient. The fact that any given magician can only summon five predefined types of spirit is one of the principal balancing factors on magic. |
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Mar 3 2012, 12:09 AM
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#13
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
At which point all the cheese-weasels take Voodoo*.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) -k * - plays a voodoo-type caster |
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Mar 3 2012, 05:33 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 1 2012, 02:57 PM) Honestly, I think forcing an ally to rely on a spell for combat is a waste of a power. For 22 karma more, Corvina (bottom of the spreadsheet for her stats, or scroll to the far right for karma-cost breakdown) has a broad suite of powers useful both in and out of combat, and when pressed can hurl lightning bolts all day long with no Drain. Conjuring an ally is high in the running for the most awesome thing you can do with a magician; why limit your ally to just resisting your drain and spamming Manabolt? Energy Aura + Psychokinesis = ranged energy punches, out to LoS. QUOTE (SR4A, page 294, Energy Aura) Melee attacks made by the critter gain and additional +4 modifier to the Damage Value. Psychokinesis references the Magic Fingers spell: QUOTE (SR4A, page 211, Magic Fingers) The caster can use skills remotely with Magic Fingers... The caster can fight... using the Magic Fingers as if they were real hands.
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Mar 3 2012, 06:07 AM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,655 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
Please show me where it says the Magic Fingers share the spirit's energy aura.
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Mar 3 2012, 06:50 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 3 2012, 05:33 AM) Energy Aura + Psychokinesis = ranged energy punches, out to LoS. Psychokinesis references the Magic Fingers spell: Please don't pass on your twisted rules lawyering bad habits to the OP. The clue is in the name. The spirit has an energy aura, it's psycokinetic punches don't. |
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Mar 3 2012, 07:18 AM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 3 2012, 12:07 AM) Please show me where it says the Magic Fingers share the spirit's energy aura. I did. Energy explicitly states that any melee attack you do has its benefits. Magic Fingers (and by extension, Psychokinesis), allow you to perform any action with any skill you have while using their effect as their origin. Therefore, your melee attacks are benefited from your Energy Aura regardless if they are from your physical body or your hand-like projections. QUOTE (Midas @ Mar 3 2012, 12:50 AM) Please don't pass on your twisted rules lawyering bad habits to the OP. The clue is in the name. The spirit has an energy aura, it's psycokinetic punches don't. No, the clue is in the exact wording of the abilities. My "twisted" rules-lawyering is simply direct reasoning. The real question is: "How RAW do you want your game?" |
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Mar 3 2012, 07:31 AM
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#18
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Hehe, I love this one. It probably means you can wear shock gloves and deliver that hit via Magic Fingers, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mar 3 2012, 07:40 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
Almost. Their description states that their contact delivers the pulse of electricity. You could place the "magical invisible hands" inside shock gloves, of course. Or better, tesla gloves, and have the gloves out at LoS using the arcing ability to hit people 1 meter further.
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Mar 3 2012, 10:11 AM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
Questionable. The attack is performed by the magic fingers, not by you. They have their own agility and strength raitings....
QUOTE ("Energy Aura") . Melee attacks made by the critter gain an additional +4 modifier to the Damage Value. It does not talk about skills, it tells you, you need to make a melee attack. QUOTE ("Magic Finger") Magic Fingers creates a psychokinetic effect like “invisible hands” that can hold or manipulate items. QUOTE ("Magic fingers") The caster can use skills remotely with Magic Fingers, but all tests receive a –2 dice pool modifier due to problems of fine control. Even simple actions like picking up a coin may require an Agility Test, at the gamemaster’s discretion. The caster can fight, pick a lock, or perform any other action, using the magic fingers as if they were real hands. If anything, the melee attacks are made by the magic fingers. So no, energy aura does not apply. Or it would also apply if you jumped into a drone and hit somebody with the drone a thousand miles away. And thats really the lower end of the scale. You say that using the skill, everything should be treated as if you used your own hands. (You know that this would mean that if a failed test means damage, you would also get this damage using magical fingers?) |
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Mar 3 2012, 10:42 AM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 |
The level of retardation is strong in this thread. Why would you do this - even if it DID work (which it doesn't) when you could use Elemental Attack all day long and with no drain??
- J. |
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Mar 3 2012, 11:03 AM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
@The Jake
Several issues. This magic finger trick is more for the adept types. With killing hands you than may choose to inflict stundamage or not. Not to mention, that the hands are INVISIBLE. So defty modifiers to defend against. (And the spell elemental aura does increase it by HITS, so probably more than just +4) And you may use martial arts... For an ally spirit it is not that great, true. But still your base damage might be higher. If you go for the ultimate cheese you may stick SEVERAL elemental effects on top of that. Just taking two elemental auras or the innate spell. So your damage is very fast, very high. (And nobody will be able to touch you in melee combat either...) Lets put it like that: If you build a melee monster allly spirit, magical fingers just add a ranged attack! |
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Mar 3 2012, 03:14 PM
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#23
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
My question was this: why is "as if they were real hands" being interpreted as "as if they were *your actual* hands"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mar 3 2012, 03:40 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 3 2012, 04:42 AM) The level of retardation is strong in this thread. Why would you do this - even if it DID work (which it doesn't) when you could use Elemental Attack all day long and with no drain?? - J. Because the SPIRIT POWERS of Energy Aura and Psychokinesis also have no drain. |
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Mar 5 2012, 10:24 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-October 11 Member No.: 39,548 |
Reading all these replies have been a lot of fun and from what I've read, I should drop the innate spells (maybe keep heal since spirits don't have that spirit power) and replace it with elemental aura and elemental strike (?) for a ranged attack.
With elemental aura I would have 2P +5P damage in melee with balistic armor halved. That seems like not such a bad idea since it doesn't generate any drain. Any other good ideas for spirit powers? somehow I can't decide what I should take and I'm not very experienced with spirit powers ... And for the part of mages being only balanced when they summon only their basic spirits described in RAW, since my mage is a REALLY bad summoner and I rarely summon any spirits in our sessions, our GM doesn't mind about it since I'm not a spirit heavy user. Also I'm the only magical backup our party has and I need to be able to play different rolls to help out the team. |
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