It does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Logic 1 has a 1-in-3 chance to succeed when defaulting, unless there's a single penalty in which you automatically fail.

Logic 7 has a near 100% chance to succeed when defaulting, and even with severe penalties you have a better than 50% chance.

Not the probability of 1 hit, the number of hits. Both are capped at 1. That's why I said 'just an example'; it applies to Log 2, 3, etc.

Yes, but the probability of that success and the ability to take penalties certainly matters.

Without the cap, the genius would know just as much about repairing artillery as the Logic 3, skill 4 guy (but he still can't fix a car if his life depended on it...go figure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

If you're a genius (Logic 7) and doesn't study anything related (skills 0), you won't be very good at anything that requires learning.

Then those things wouldn't be defaultable. That's my point: if something is in the rules as defaultable, it's by-definition something you *could* fake (like Athletics), not something you can't (Pilot:Sub).

And you can fake it with hit caps. Just not very well. Which is fine.

And you can still default on Pilot Watercraft (Submarine).

One hit (or even 2) is frequently not good enough.

Bad example, then; replace all my references to Submarine with Suborbital. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You can spend Edge if you have to make one test, like avoiding a crash. But unless you have a lot of Edge (and are willing to blow it all in three rounds on one car chase), that's about it. Vehicle combat-- whether tactical or chase-- generally takes several rounds, requires multiple tests, and generally has a threshold higher than 1. It seems to me that's like saying to the player, "Unless you have built for something you will fail at it, so only try the things you have built for."

We keep using the REA 9 guy like that's a normal thing, but it's the pinnacle of (super)human achievement. It's the hard cap. It's as good as a person could ever be. And if he's defaulting on test, he's about average or a little behind the runner curve. If we're talking about a soft cap human maximum of 6, he's below average or what I would consider "civilian average" when defaulting on a test. That really, really doesn't bother me.

Also, not having a rank in a skill doesn't necessarily mean you have no experience with it. My sammie might not have Pilot: Ground Vehicle, but that doesn't mean his only recourse when confronted with a car is to poke it with his katana.

Right, that's Skill X/Unaware.

Suborbital works (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They're almost the same anyway, except not quite (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

If we ignore Jumping for now, and agree that Perception is something of a mess regardless of hit caps (if strictly applied), the only thing where you'll need more than 1 success is for any kind of advanced driving (everything beyond normal keep-to-the-rules stuff), and combat where you always(?) want as many successes as possible - but completely untrained individuals don't fare very well in combat against those with training.

Everything else is IMO adequate, and possibly better than that with 1 hit at a time during extended tests (taking extra time to manage anything), and occasional Edge use if it really really really matters (extreme situations). Possibly Rapelling as well, where you need 2 hits and either go down at 20m per pass or not at all. It isn't clear that you can do extended tests for rapelling, and a defaulting character should realistically manage - if awkwardly and slowly and with lots of yelping (but the rules for rapelling don't cover 'half-successes').

Having high Body, Agility, and Reaction is good enough as it is, without also having those people average 3 successes on any defaultable skill, equalling normal trained professionals.

Very true.

Like Yerameyahu said, someone who's never seen a car would be ranked as 'Unaware' Incompetent (Pilot Ground craft). Not able to default.

Someone with Skill Rank 0: "Can get from here to there, but can't handle driving in adverse conditions." (emphasis mine)

Remember that most casual driving in SR4 will be using the car's built-in Pilot and sensors.

That's casual riding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My position is that someone with great Reaction *should* be able to get lucky (not Edge-y) and manage better than 1 hit in many cases.

Again, it *is* an opinion question: do you think great natural abilities should allow untrained/minimally-trained success, or not? I think SR in general leans toward 'yes'.

I fully agree.

But, imo, the degree of success you can acheive by defaulting/minimal training is too high, unless you apply some of the optional rules.

This may stem from the fact that we often see very high stats in our games, and characters earning over of 300 Karma over a career - such characters become very capable at almost anything, able to default to the level of near-elite npcs (DP of 10) with no training at all.

On the obverse, a low-power campaign we had saw a minotaur street sam fail at getting up onto a building because he was lacking Climbing/Jumping skill and couldn't fit on the 20th century fire escape...

If only the rules were 'perfect'... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

They may not be perfect, but they are the next best thing - customizable. With optional rules for both grittier and for more cinematic gameplay, Shadowrun is easier to tweak to the level of verisimilitude that you want it to be.

As has been discussed on other threads the chase rules suck eggs, but yes, if you use the optional rules and your REA 9 sammie is defaulting with a hit cap of 1 in a chase vs a REA 3 Skill 3 mook, best to use a bit of edge to raise the pursuit distance as much as you can afford, then bail out somewhere where you can dissappear. Not possible in a sub I guess, but there you go.

When you think about it though, REA 9 is just lightning fast reflexes, so I am fine with that leading to basically 1 hit on any vehicle test, but no more without the use of Edge. If you consider the flip side (not using the optional rule), your pursuing mook will have to be REA 4 and skill 4 just to keep pace with your defaulting sammie, so there is no point him ever learning any vehicle skill unless he wants to diversify into professional rigging.

And it is not "Unless you have built for something you will fail at it, so only try the things you have built for.", it is more "Unless you have built for something you will fail at it against skilled opposition , so time to use Edge or think of plan B."

If the defaulting sammie is at the absolute human maximum, the hard cap, the pinnacle of human achievement, it's really, really okay with me if he's a match for a mook.

If what you want to penalize is defaulting, it might be better to simply raise the defaulting penalty directly. (That hurts low DP people even more, but nothing's perfect, hehe.)

I think it is important to SR, heroism, cyberpunk, etc. to preserve the concept of 'the natural' and 'the genius'. Someone excellent *can* walk up and amaze on their first try. (Or not, if it's non-defaultable.)

Yeah. got to be about what can and cannot be defaulted upon. That's going to require some GM discretion at some point.

That just means that the Sammie reacts way faster than the mook - but if he don't know HOW to react properly, his speed will not help him.

Which describes a non-defaultable skill. He's taking a penalty for being untrained (-1). If that's too small, change *it*. But a defaultable skill should be by-definition something for which training is not required (Jumping, etc.).

Like Yeramahu says, that really comes down to the skill in question. I imagine that being able to react with 3+ times the efficiency and awareness of a normal human being helps immensely in some skillsets based on hand-eye coordination, even if you don't know exactly what you're doing. Having that kind of reaction time will help you to respond to the mistakes you (inevitably) make, and likely even correct them in time for those mistakes to not be critical; even without expert race car driving, inhuman reaction speeds would likely help someone drive a race car, for instance. Less than someone with inhuman reaction speeds and formal training and experience, of course...but it should still beat the pants offa neither of the above.

How many dice you have is how we determine in this system how good you are at something. I don't buy the assertion that 8 dice from one source should be all that different from 8 dice from another source or 8 dice from another source. I don't care if he gets them from defaulting from a superhuman reaction, from a mix of decent reaction and training, or from the world's worst reaction and a lifetime of training-- all I need to see is how many dice he has and that can tell me roughly how good he is at something.

Only if you don't use the optional rules.


(Oh, and not capping hits for defaulting means that higher force spirits automatically are quite accomplished at First Aid, Pilot Ground craft, Pilot Watercraft, Armorer, Heavy Weapons, SMGs etc - even Computer! ...not to mention a Great Sea-dragon Parachuting with 22 dice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (oh, and remember how 'slow and clumsy' Leviathans are on land? Climbing and Running 34 dice - and that's for a standard adult leviathan, no less... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

So, the GM can either use common sense on spirits, or arbitrarily punish the PC's for not making their characters a certain way. I fail to see the advantage in the latter.

Honestly, I fail to see the 'punishment' - imo 1 success is fine for pretty much every situation an untrained person should be able to handle (Jumping excluded), and plenty for extended tests. I don't think someone who qualifies as 'Untrained' should perform at the level of trained professionals, regardless of maxed-out stats. Besides, it's only punishment if the player expects to be able to default with 5 successes. If max 1 success for defaulting is the norm, it won't be seen as punishment (and it's certainly not 'arbitrary')

Without the hit cap option it is very easy to create an ultra-generalist with several near-maxed-out stats, focusing skill points in mostly non-defaultable skills, and performing quite well at the majority of physical skills a character will ever need.

It's fine (and even desired) for things like SRM campaigns and home games that only run for a handful or three worth of scenarios, but when characters live to earn 300-400 Karma they can pretty much do everything with little effort. To me, that takes away a big portion of Shadowrun's dystopic cyberpunk feel.

Plus, as a GM it's a lot more player-friendly to have the hit cap and then let the PCs 'get away with' an extra success or two if it makes sense for the situation, than to not enforce any hit cap at all and then suddenly tell the player 'you can only get one hit on this test, because...'. That's arbitrary punishment.

Spirits are inherently a mess, worse for skills they *do* have.

See, that's the opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) IMO, 1 hit is *not* enough. Ultra-generalists are good.

But neither of those is good, and you wouldn't do either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You have to be consistent.