Agreed.


Yes - too good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)


Rewarding good roleplating with a potential extra success or two isn't really 'bad' imo. However, if I want to reward them in that way, I'll just refresh a point of edge instead so they feel they get a 'free' edge use on that test. Rewards are good, it makes for happy players. It's even consistent (well, kind of), as long as the players know roughly what they can expect.

Not having the hit cap for normal PCs but 'using common sense' when it comes to spirits (as Mercer put it) will arbitrarily punish Conjurers and Free Spirit PCs unless you outline every possible 'common sense' ruling - or, of course, just allow the plant spirit to pilot submarines and the fire elemental to defuse a bomb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, the solution is probably to have spirits better-defined, with lots of Unaware ratings. I don't think it's a good idea, though, to let the craziness that is spirits to unduly influence this discussion.

Yup. Opinions. I fully agree it depends on the table and the specific game.

I do, naturally, agree that you'd want to be consistent and up-front with your conjurers, just as with everyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was just saying that you wouldn't suddenly grant exceptions to the dice cap, *nor* suddenly impose it; you'd be consistent and up-front with everyone. As for FSPCs, just screw *them*, man. Hehe.

Indeed! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Yeah, as long as everyone at the table knows beforehand more or less what they can expect to do, or not do - and you stick to that as best you can without screwing up the game - it'll be fine.

Surely Spirits can't default?

Defaulting is a by-product of at least having a vague idea of what they should be doing, and Spirits come from the bizzaro metaplanes, ergo will have absolutely no idea of what they should be doing in with a bomb or submarine. So the spirit example is a red herring. Agree with snowRaven and Yerameyahu about FSPCs, the whole concept just seems like a power problem waiting to happen.

Defaulting already gives a -1 to the linked Att, huh? I don't see the problem. Ensure that there's no defaulting on stupid skills and all is fine. Or raise the TN to 6 on a default test, or make it a -2 to DP. Capping successes seems to me to be the cruellest way to do it.

As said above, as long as you're honest and consistent with your players, it's all good.

That's what I said: you have to give spirits Unaware (Rating X) to demonstrate that (or, of course, say they're Unaware in everything; this method probably requires giving them more skills explicitly?). Either way.

Yeah, it might be interesting to compare the curves for -1 defaulting, -2, and TN6 (though I'd prefer to never mess with TNs in SR4), (and/or Gremlins, easy glitching?).

Easier glitches is not a terrible idea, that's the same mech as for rushing an extended test isn't it? That would probably work.

I'm happy to mess with TNs in appropriate situations, and i'm yet to find a solution to The Long Shot Test Anomaly that doesn't involve using the -dice pool as a TN modifier and still works.

Actually, by RAW it is specifically mentioned that they can, and do so normally (it's under 'Sapience' power, if I remember correctly).

It's not that variable TN doesn't work. It's that it's an alien mechanic to SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not entirely - there's the Cinematic option of changing it to 4,5,6 - as well as the optional Street Legends Quality that does the same thing for an individual for 100 Karma (provided he already earned 500...).

But it would be something I'd shy away from doing except under those limited circumstances (applying it for everyone in cinematic games, or for rare individuals paying through their teeth in normal games)

That optional rule's not *variable* TN, right? I hadn't read Street Legends, though… that's kind of a crazy power, wow. 'I'm so good, reality is different for me.'

Well, if that means Spirits can be lazing about on the fire planes one day and then able to expertly disassemble an AK-97 the next then I call house rule.

Same thing applies, what can and cannot be defaultable should be to GM discretion at all times.

Classic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

It's on page 6 'Running Legends':



Put that on Lofwyr and let your players go at him... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

It's more of a "Wow, I'm so cinematic and over the top, the GM is seeing fit that reality is different for me and people around me."

Not for the 100 karma version, that's just for the one guy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But, yeah. Neither of those is old-SR-style variable TN. Which isn't bad per se, it's just not SR4.

Maybe I missed something here, but my experience with FSPCs leads me to believe they are some of the least likely candidates for abuse of defaulting. They just can't afford a whole rack of high Attributes.

The trouble with increasing the -1DP for unskilled is it starts boning characters who did *not* elect to take a superhuman attribute. When you include the chance of glitching, even the 1DP penalty for defaulting makes it a risky enough prospect for characters with attributes in the 3-5 range.

Even with the optional rule, attributes still rule the roost because they are linked to so many skills and offer other benefits as well (initiative, condition moniters, encumbrance, DV for unarmed etc etc). What the hit cap does do is increase the relevance of skills, and encourages PCs to take a wide range of skills, either during CharGen or in-game. In this way, mundanes who (according to some DSers) have little use for karma suddenly do, and mages will have to invest some of their karma on raising skills rather than just focusing on Magic and initiation, which in turn reduces their power creep.

The advantage of the skill cap for me as a GM is that I do not have to throw ridiculously high thresholds or super-mooks at the PCs just to make the game challenging for them.

The only disadvantage with skill caps that I have found is in opposed tests. The 1 hit cap for defaulting means that anyone using it in an opposed test against an opponent with the skill will almost always fail unless they use Edge, but I guess such is the advantage and relevance of proper training.

Yeah, this is what I see at my table as well.



Indeed. But, if you've never held a gun before it's not easy to hit someone with combat experience and/or fast reflexes who is trying to avoid you. That's what wide bursts are for, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Main issue here is with Social skills, and it means the player has to be smart and try and introduce negative DP modifiers for the NPCs.

Just knocking the idea around in my head: how about if skills were used as automatic successes instead of as part of the dice pool? Skill 1 = 1 success, you automatically succeed at really simple tasks, and you have your Att + other DP stuff to try for better results.

This makes skills really useful. Attributes are still really useful in that they apply to many skills. It makes the difference between skill 5 and skill 6 more noticeable.

I (of course) haven't run any numbers (not even sure I know how to do that) or looked at any other systems that might use a similar mechanic. Just idle musings...

You'd have to up thresholds, most likely.
You'd have to clearly define if a penalty applies to the skill first or to the attribute first.
You'd have to clarify regarding augmented skill ratings.
You'll also likely have to lower base weapon damage unless you want a much more lethal game.

The Spellcasting 7 mind-control Mage will rule the world
The [ranged Skill] 10 Adept will kill with each shot

I agree, Midas. It all just depends on who you're trying to affect, and when. :/ Personally, I'm not at all worried about generalists. At the beginning of this, people suggested that hitcaps helped rein in *specialists*; they don't, but presumably that is a goal people have?

The reason this problem is hard is that core mechanics are hard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Um. I think some people have suggested making DPs Attrib/2+Skill, just directly making skill more important?

1. Yeah
2. Biggest problem, I think. Also what happens if modifiers deplete the dice pool - how do negative mods affective skill? Have to think more about it...
3. Not sure why
4. True, but I'm for that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Not sure I see the problem, here. Skill 10 Adept? F*cking skill 10? Yes, he should kill with each shot, unless he comes against situations or people that can challenge this level of skill in killing. Same with any other ridiculously high-skill character.

I'm more concerned that any auto-hit rule necessarily reduces the random variability of the tests. This is more opinion than anything else, but it's a concern. I am happy with the current level of randomness (d6 dicepools between about 1-20 dice), and I don't like people being complacent about the number of hits they're sure they'll get. With this rule… jesus, would anyone *ever* care about rolling? In combat, I guess, but for almost everything else, life just became either a cake walk or a living hell (why try if you know you'll succeed *or* fail?). Or, depending on how you've increased thresholds, you've just required X skill.

I suggested Attrib+Skill*2, but this helps mages a lot (MAG+Spellcasting*2 vs. WIL) and makes ranged combat really dangerous


The Mage: 7 Autohits + (MAG+Mentor Spirit+Spec+Focus+Aid Spellcasting) vs WIL - anyone without access to counterspelling is just fucked, the mage can wreck every vehicle because he always beats the OR, etc.

Well, the Skill 10 Adept could hunt armored vehicles with a stock holdout pistol - 10 Auto-hits, 4 DV from the Pistol, 4 DV from a called Shot, and then roll AGI-4