Shields are a exception, because they only add onto something else, they do not have a armor value by themselves. The same is with helms the bit in the Milspec entry about "being desinged to be worn with blah blah blah" is purely a fluff part and doesn't provide you with a exception or addition to the listed rules. Anything that provides a +/+ is not a actualy "worn armor" as "worn armor" is a Number/Number as per the stacked armor rule section

People. Calm down. We have reached the point where neither side will back down, for pride and stubbornness.

Very Well

How about Form-fitting? It's not listed as +/+, but in the description it says it adds the rating to other armor.

Space suits? Like military armor they state that 'no other armor may be worn' - can they stack with a helmet? PPP?

Same goes for Polar Survival Suits.

Would a Moonsilver Line Scarf (+1/0) stack with Milspec armor?

Form fitting has two different rules that govern it

It has 1 paragraph that details its use as stand alone Armor (Number/Number)
The second paragraph details its use in combination with something else (+/+, although its a fake +/+)

The rules that apply to each paragraph are different, since they are intended for different usage. You'll notice that instead of the normal use for encumbrance they have a special clause that treats only half of their rating instead of the full amount, that's part of why its so good, in addition to having a skin-tight layer underneath everything else. However because it doesn't actually work as a Helm/Shield i'm sad to say it wouldn't go with Milspec, as it doesn't refer us to a Helm/Shield section. That sucks

The Scarf would not stack for two reasons, 1) It only can be used with the other clothes in the same section 2) It does not have any clauses that it would function as a Helm/Shield.

Actually, the scarf is not part of a line in that way (no © on that group of items) - it stacks with any other stuff you use. If it was part of a line, there wouldn't have been a need for the '+' in front of it's armor, and evening gown and cocktail dress would've had * on their entries.

So, can you wear a military helmet and PPP system with a Space Suit? It has the same clause of 'no other armor' that the milspec armors do.

I don't agree, and I don't see that the rules agree. A piece of worn armor is any piece of armor that you wear. PPP is undeniably a piece of worn armor, regardless of how the numbers are added. It is not, for example, an Armor Modification. Milspec doesn't allow any other worn armor, specifically excepting the appropriate helm.

Indeed... not sure why this is so hard. If you WEAR it, it is WORN. Pretty Simple, actually.

Hey Yoko! Can Kamina and I borrow your scarf? Gurren Lagann needs more armor!

You don't wear a shield though, your Thinking RAI.

EDIT: That scarf is also interesting as it is a +1 but has no info on how to use it, its been a moment since I actually looked at it so I was running off of memory thinking it added like the rest. Considered we have absolutely no info on what to do with it you can let it add like any other +/+ or not, whatever works would depend on the person.

That little detail is why the 'shield problem' doesn't exist for milspec, either. It's perfect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Historically, though, there's plenty of linguistic evidence that people 'wear' a shield. It all depends.

Regarding an armor scarf (wtf?), the answer is clear: delete the ridiculous thing.

I was not referring to a Shield, though, Ragewind, but to PPP, which is what this discussion has primarily been about as of late. Shields are easy, they are not worn, so are not restricted from being used with Milspec Armor, by the description in the Milspec Armor section (Only WORN Armor is restricted, with the exception of a Helmet). However, PPP is MOST DEFINITELY WORN, regardless of how you wish to explain it, and thus is NOT AVAILABLE to be used with Milspec Armor. This is where the comment was directed. It is so obvious that I have a hard time believing that there are some that do not quite grasp that concept. I have to agree with Yerameyahu; regardless of how the numbers are added, you are still left with the distinction that PPP is WORN Armor.

Mwa ha ha! TJ has to *agree* with me!

It does occur on occasion, Yerameyahu. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ragewind just doesn't want to understand it.

So, just go and play your Military-grade Armor with PPP, while everyone else goes and plays by the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Though, I suppose, you won't even choose such weak armor, if you can have multiple layers of PPP-enhanced FFBA protecting you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)




Arsenal has been updated for SR4A, so it is equally recent (or even moreseo, since it was updated after SR4A; besides that text hasn't been updated in either book, except for page references).




Now I really have trouble staying on my chair here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


But I have to agree with Yerameyahu (yay, I can even type that correctly). Your performance here is quite entertaining. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But I guess it's time to do something useful now...

Bye
Thanee

I always figured you'd have to wrap yourself in it to get the protection...but yeah, it's a bit silly.

I still want an answer regarding Spacesuits and helmets - it says Space suits can't be combined with worn armor, so - PPP and a helmet?

Ragewind, if PPP and helmets don't count as armor and aren't worn can you use multiple of each to enhance your armor of choice?

If you can increase your armor rating by covering your forearms or shins with guards, you should be able to increase your armor rating by wrapping a much more vulnerable part, your neck, with some ballistic cloth.

and now for the crowning act of wtf armor?
can you add ballistic gel packs to the scarf?

Yes. And a full set of PPP, to go with your full-PPP'ed armor jacket, full-PPP'ed FFBA and full-PPP'ed motorcycle helmet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

You cant allow a Shield/Helm and not allow other things that follow the same rules, no matter how hard it is to wrap your head around. That's called Cherry Picking and if its something you do with rules I cannot help you.



You can do whatever the rules let you do, as mentioned before there is nothing (other than common sense, applied to a cyberpunk setting) that stops you, if you can do it at your table it will work.

A good point to consider is that anything with a +/+ can be "stacked" as it is not actually armor by the strict game definition, and has a clause that states it does not count as other armor. If it doesn't count as other armor what armor is it counting as? Obviously the "primary" you are wearing. As i have stated many time if you are wearing a Lined Coat that is 4/6 and add a helm you get a Lined Coat that is 6/8, not a Lined Coat AND a Helm for a total of 6/8, just a Lined Coat with a new rating of 6/8. The game does not make that distinction when following the rules for Helm/Shields, as far as the game is concerned you are only wearing 1 armor piece with a new modified rating.

I have read through the thread and agree with Neraph's reading of the RAW. While there is some ambigiuity to the armor rules, I feel that the parts that are not ambigiuous are clear enough on this issue.

I sure can, Ragewind. The milspec rules specifically allow the helmet, and (if one cared about the shield) it's simple enough to say it's not 'worn'. Personally, I don't care at all about shields, but it's fully consistent.

Actually its just a Fluff piece that talks about how its "deigned" to go with it, nothing in that section actually allows you permission to wear the helm. There are many examples of this sort of writing and sentence structure in the Shadowrun books. That's part of what makes it a fun read but very confusing for rules debates.

It seems to me that choosing what's fluff and what's crunch is the real cherry picking. So, it's tricky. I generally come down on the side of less broken. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Wow...do you see the contradiction here? If this is something you do with rules, noone can help you.


Stop using common sense man. That's no fun.

Umm..that paragraph says 'intended to be worn with the approperiate helmet', 'wireless-enabled', 'built-in biomonitor', 'can be equipped with any of the armor modifications' - the paragraph above talks about reduced encumbrance and the paragraph below talks of dart guns and the like not penetrating the armor.

How do you interpret that as 'fluff' and not rules?

Also, you still haven't said if you think a Space suit (Arsenal pg. 54) can be combined with Helmets and PPP?