It's not exactly common knowledge, but there will be other groups to contend with. Well, one, at least. The Vory hired a team of SeaRunners out of L.A. to get it back, but they didn't have a mage to have a Spirit use the Search power to find the container. So my players will get to the container before the other Runners do.

They're going to be confronted with a dragon telling them to get dunked because the container is its. (By reasoning of 'I got here first.')

Of course, if they can manage not to piss their pants long enough to successfully make a Knowledge (Parazoology) check, or a Knowledge (Modern History) check, they'll remember that Dracoforms cannot produce metahuman speech. It's a phantasm. A group of Pixies want the container. Not the contents, just the container. If the players react to this with bullets, the pixies will leg it (wing it) and send some Boobries to attack them instead.

Once they're sailing for Seattle, the group of SeaRunners (smaller, in a boat rather than a ship, but well-armed,) will suspect they may be up to something. They're experienced pirates, so it should be interesting to see my players try to deal with them.

But really, a box or a cyberdeck can't be shapechanged into a dolphin.

True, but at least the AI has some Data Search to bring to the party, and the spirit alone isn't the InstaWin button ... and that's only if the PCs think of doing it.
"What mental image of Nabu's commlink are you giving the spirit?" is a valid GM question, and arguably something not closely matching the mental image provided would result in failure, as in "Sorry, I couldn't find anything like the image you gave me.", or net the PCs a groupie's commlink which happened to match the mental image better than Nabu's commlink.


Good pick up, SS.

ShadowDragon, remember that rock concerts are one of the examples of things that generate temporary BGC, so for On The Run mages, adepts and spirits should be nerfed a little at the venue while the concert is in progress and for a few hours afterwards ...

A spirit sees the world as is is on the astral plane. It's all emotion. Everything not living and not bearing a really strong emotional ties is a generic grey shape, with no color or texture. A spirit cannot read anything and cannot see any images produced by electronics.

A spirit cannot "search" for something unless it has seen it before or the summoner can supply a mental image of the commlink. Has the summoner seen THAT comlink? What exactly does that comlink look like on the astral plane? How does it differ from every other comlink in the building?

For your particular group, I think youre going to have to tailor every module to challenge them a little more - and by that I mean adding in magical security more often than it might usually be. Adepts guards. paracritters. glossmoss. wards. watchers as alarms to trigger proper spirits. And drones - lot of wiz drones to challenge the spirit herd.

This thread is also a good example of why possession mages should not be allowed as PCs. They make great bad guys. But too much headache as PCs.

Technically it can, Bearclaw. When a Spirit possesses something inanimate, that something becomes a gestalt creature, which is a valid target for spells that target creatures, IE, Shapechange.

I think I'm going to rule that Shapechange is ruinous to electronics, though. They shapeshift back completely wiped, and I'm not even talking about 'factory settings,' I'm talking about everything from the processor on up is a tabula rasa of zeros, putting it beyond repair without a facility and an uneconomical expense of nuyen to get the programs and equipment needed to flash it back to factory specs, and completely beyond any hope of data recovery. (Anything paid for with Essence is exempt, of course. Hey, now you have a reason to take implanted commlinks!)




Yeah, but as was said, this is the kind of thing that they can overcome simply by looking up an image of Nabo using his commlink to get a crystal-clear idea of what it looks like; he's an up-and-coming rockstar and Horizon have been sucking his dick, probably literally, for weeks now, so you bet your ass they bought him a brand-new commlink blinged out the wazoo, so not only is going to be physically unique, he likely still has that "my new toy" emotional attachment to it. Or, they can just tell the spirit to scoop up every commlink-shaped device in the room.





The problem I have with that is that a rock concert will inconvenience my mages and their spirits, but it will annihiliate my Adept back into being an unaugmented mundane, and her mundane stats are pathetic.

Unless I rule that PhysAds are immune to background count (which is not an unappealing notion, I'm of a mind to concede,) background counts as a means of inconveniencing the mages administer a wholly unfair message of "sit in the truck and masturbate so you don't get hurt or give us away" to the PhysAd.




A Commlink is a highly-personal device. People keep it on them nearly at all times, so it's not remotely a stretch to say it has an empathic link to its owner. Additionally, as I mentioned above, Nabo's commlink is likely to be of a distinct shape as well.





Oh, god no. Paracritters? The possession mage is a paracritter trainer with animal empathy, he'd be able to coax them into letting him walk right past. Glowmoss and biofiber boards might work for some places, but not this one. Though I guess someone could have thrown up a ward.

*sigh* I need to reread the magic rules. Again.

I hate trying to come up with stats for mages to oppose my PCs.



If I had bloody realized that BEFORE he had asked for it, I would've said no!

There's always the trusty old counter to characters you don't like. Sniper in the next run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

If you are going to make them deal with BC, I would suggest that it only have half its normal effect against an adept's non-mage powers. The reasoning behind this being an adept's body would naturally resist outside influences.

Thus mage/mystic adept spellcasting abilities get reduced point for point while non-casting abilities only get reduced by half.

Just a suggestion for a house rule.

BTW, I would not let a crate of stuff be shapechanged. The crate could be shapechanged upon possession by the spirit. The stuff inside just falls out. The crate is a separate object from the contents. The spirit would need to shapechange into something that can hold the contents, like a truck for instance.

You could, in theory, have BGC that is aspected towards the Adept's tradition. If you do this more than once every now and then it is going to get kinda lame, though.

here's a nice house rule addition, that might help you: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1106460
This way, spirits will sometimes not exactly behave as the player wishes.

Didn't read everything, but one thing comes to mind...

How do those spirits actually find the places they are sent to?

They sure have their Search power, but if it is tens or hundreds or thousands of kilometers away, it is rather unlikely, that they will succeed. The distance increases the threshold by one for every kilometer between the starting point and the target. And another +5 for nonliving stuff.

The suggested way to do extended tests, that should have a chance of failure, is to remove one die for each additional attempt, making the number of dice you roll finite. A glitch means -1d6 hits or some inconvenience happens. A critical glitch means you have to start over.

They don't have GPS or something like that. They cannot simply find a real-world location that easily. Astral space does not look like the real world.

"Go to california." is something a spirit cannot comprehend. They cannot read maps. They do not know how the physical world looks like. It simply doesn't work.

And even if they manage to find the place, probably being guided by their summoner (who also needs to find it first, which isn't an easy task for a magician either), how do they know it is exactly the item in question, if their summoner has never seen that item.

Physical items are not easily distinguishable to them. I don't think (but I might be wrong there, didn't check it in great detail) that spirits that materialize gain physical senses, like humans have. They still see things in their astral fashion. A commlink is just a little, unremarkable shadow there, barely discernable.

Most importantly, they cannot find anything with Search, that they or their summoner hasn't seen before. First-hand experience. Without that, the Search simply fails without any roll whatsoever.

I think you might be making all this way too easy for them.

Bye
Thanee

There's also the optional rule of decreasing dice pools for extended tests. We use it for the Search power.

Yeah, I edited that in in the meantime. Please, read my post again, it has changed quite a bit by now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

BTW, that is not really an optional rule. It is the suggested way of handling extended tests that should have a chance of failure.

Bye
Thanee

My current campaign that I am GM'ing has two magicians as well, one of them being a Possession shaman. While initially it took some adjustment dealing with a Possession-based shaman, he's integrated into the game quite nicely. Powerful though spirits are when possessing, they still have a couple draw backs, some of which are obvious and others that are not so obvious. For example, while in our game drones cannot perceive spirits when they are materialized, they sure can see a spirit possessing some security guard and can act accordingly. Further, a powerful spirit possessing a metahuman is going to be quite noticeable to someone (a force 7 earth spirit could have mineral formations popping out of its skin).

I also encourage the idea that certain types of spirits will prefer to possess certain types of objects/persons/critters (Spirit of Man prefers Metahumans or Metahuman-associated objects, Fire spirits might prefer a tree thats on fire or a hellhound, etc, etc). This leads the shaman to think (correctly) that its a good idea to remain on good terms with your spirits because the amount of harm they can do (i.e. if a bound spirit were to break loose) can be quite catastrophic.

If spirits are walking over the opposition have them be attacked on two fronts; the physical and the astral. A couple of corp security drones throwing full auto at a Possessed Troll with an astral Spirit of Beasts clawing his dual-natured face into soyburger is sure to at least give it a little pause. And an astral security spirit is going to be able to follow/pester/attack a physical-based spirit wherever it goes.

If the PCs are coming up against opposition that lacks the ability to give them a challenge, then what kind of risk are they running? I probably wouldn't distribute as much Karma to them as a result.

But..I wouldn't disallow the player to play a Possession based character. I WOULD think about Possessing the Possession-based shaman and see how he likes it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, there is good evidence that a Spirit can Read (seeing as how Buttercup can read the comic books Dunkie left her, and actually runs a Corp IIRC), as long as the media is physical and not an electronic image. And it is arguable that they DO get Normal Senses when Materialized.

There was a rather long Thread about that very thing at one point, not too terribly long ago. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just wanted to mentioned how I worked around the following:



There is never any reason not to tweak scenarios as written, since players will try -anything- once, and often more times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I added a disgruntled wagemage having a few spirits around but being too confused to prevent astral shenanigans while still giving an enjoyable challenge. As for the matrix side of things, I added a royal negative modifier to finding Nabos commlink, figuring that everyone was recording, chatting and scumming around with their gadgets at the show - AR/wireless pollution is a big hindrance to hackers, which is why a hacking PC gots to know their trade. Also, one might argue that Nabo is a prime target for hacking, even if it's just fans, so he might have disabled his signal or had a more tech-savvy manager do it for him, thus needing you to get close.

GM'ing is about thinking on your feet, if you see a problem in advance, plan contingencies. Time doing so is never wasted, you can always use a trick at a later time, or even make sweeping strategies for security. Doing so can save a while in the other end, too.

Yeah there is a big difference between a powerful Free Spirit and a run of the mill summoned spirit.

Same for length of time on the physical plane.
Buttercup has had decades (or more) on the material plane while the summoned spirit may have had a few hours worth of experience on the material plane.


I could see a familiar being able to read if they have a form with eyesight, but not a summoned spirit (Maybe a powerful spirit of man from library).
Also a possession spirit in a creature with good eye sight....


I mean if a astral human spell caster can not read a computer screen, then why would a spirit be able to?


But you could make the player teach the spirit how to read (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Is there a reference for this "gestalt creature" thing?

Your game so your way, but IMHO while I can totally see a drone not being able to see an astral mage (since only living creature and see or hear the astral mage and only if he wants them to), if a spirit is manifested if would be fair game. Still an unmoving spirit would be hard to detect if there was a suitable place to hid(say a bond fire for a fire elemental).

I admit that I never thought of this before, but an unrigged drone might not know to target the moving trash pile of a spirit of man or the dust devil of an air elemental, but it would be able to see it through the sensors.
And they have had 40 years plus to program targeting software for manifesting spirits (not that they can do much to a powerful spirit).


The difference between the two is that the Astral Mage is totally unable to interact with the material plane except that he can communicate/appear to living creatures. The astral mage is all mana based, while the manifesting spirit is physically on our side.

How has it worked out?

This here is from Street Magic.



Bye
Thanee

Its worked out well. In the way I've been running the game, a spirit is "seen" by a metahuman (mundane or not) because the spirit is consciously (or subconsciously?) telling the subjects mind "there's something here" via magic, giving it a form to go with any physical interaction. A drone on the other hand, just doesn't registers there's anything present, even if the spirit is beating the bejesus out of it, though depending on how advanced its programming is it might try to attack anyway. But...I also have it cut both ways. Just as the drone can't see the spirit, neither is it fooled by powers such as concealment. A shadowrun team trying to walk by a Doberman drone with a spirit providing concealment to the team would be spotted by the drone and things would go from there.

Its one of those checks and balances things that for the most part has worked out. And since the team uses drones it works for and against them.

A manifested spirit won't be seen by a drone - just like a mage projecting and manifesting, the manifestation a nothing more than a visiible and audible mana construct akin to an illusion spell. It has no physical interaction with the material world. If the material wolrd is a room and teh astral outside, the spirit is merely showing up through a window.

A materialized spirit acquires a tangible presence and will be spotted by a drone. He's no longer mooning you at the window, it has actually stepped in the room and you can kick it's butt.

1. Any run that requires them to access a terminal (that is not connected to the rest of the matrix) to steal data or place a program inside and run it could require them to go in person.

They might choose to have a spirit possess a commlink with the AI inside so then they can travel with it (I have no idea if that is even possible but I'll assume it is) or some other method. If so then you can keep the room filled with toxin (I don't think spirits are immune to toxins and there are certainly some spirit specific toxin like things) that would need to be drained off first through accessing a node or have people going in chemsuits. Or add biometric scanners to the terminal. Even if you do nothing else the hacker is getting to hack to accomplish the task.

2. When in a firefight against something they cannot hurt, guards should retreat/call in aid/report back their findings.

They may hunker down and call in aid from their headquarters when it goes from "some well trained guys with guns" to "there is some demon-man thing that our bullets bounce harmlessly off". HQ may send magic aid of their own which could arrive in seconds astrally and focus on all dual natured and astral targets, laser armed shock troops, or off grid artillery fire from a scrambled Yellow Jacket depending upon the location.

3. As other people have said, wards.

They don't have to all be force 12 wards either, a series of force 3 wards that have to be passed through over an entire run can still be annoying but very vincible. Also most magically active things can make them, not just mages. All it takes is the occasional failure to make it worth it.

4. As other people have said, use the suggested rules on extended tests for the search power, with watcher spirits as the exception (as they only have 2 dice to roll).

Yes, I know the text. And yet, there is Canon Evidence that Spirits can Read. It is in the Novels, and it is in Canon World Books. I do not remember the ones specifically (all mine were stolen) but the reference to Buttercup reading is located in Dunklezahn's Will. Buttercup likes to read classic comic books.

Technically, possessing a car wouldn't be all that helpful if you're trying to steal it. The spirit can only do things that the car could do mechanically, and most cars would have maglocks, no? The spirit can't access the car's computer to disengage or engage the maglocks, so they'd still have to break into the car (but once they were there, the spirit could drive them someplace).