I've been toying with the idea of attempting to GM a Shadowrun game again and I've been looking at Shifters, from Runner's Companion.

I have some concerns about balance. As a test, I put together a Troll Bear Shifter character. Without really trying, he can do 14P damage with his bare hands and 9P with a weapon. On top of that, he has Regeneration, Enhanced Senses (almost all), and +1 Reach as well as a massive Body score to pile tons of armor on. That's without any martial arts.

I have some concerns that this may represent a character that is extremely difficult to threaten without anihilating the rest of the team, I'm considering restricting Shapeshifters altogether or at least Bear and Tiger/Lion shifters.

Any ideas?

First I would like to say this is all my opinion, based on years of different games.

Leave the PC shifters to the games that were specifically designed for them, I.E. Werewolf, etc.

Every other game that I have played that introduced shifters as a PC sorely regretted it.

use them as an NPC now and again

Remember that the troll attribute ratings do not stack with the bear shifter attribute ratings, so unless you made a melee adept, you probably over estimated that damage. In general, I have not found them particularly overpowered, especially since at chargen they can't have any 'ware. This means that their high attributes are not easily augmented and they can't do cyberware cheese to buff their armor. They are dual natured so that limits them as well. The regeneration thing is powerful, but not completely unbalancing, unless you're going to be play Corporations & Crime (i.e. combat based game). You might consider some of the alternate allergy options if you don't like the silver thing.
If you limit the amount of armor that can be combined, it shouldn't be much different than a troll tank. They'll almost certainly go adept, or they won't be able to get enough passes to compete in combat very well. If you're going to ban lion, you should do the same with jaguar as well. The plus 4 to agility is powerful, but that comes at the penalty of no cyberware. Of the things in runner's companion, shifters are probably not the ones you need to worry about.

I also suggest not allowing non-human shapeshifters.

Unfortunatly it looks like my post cut itself short.

The last line was supposed to be "Use them as an NPC now and again, see how they work out and how they hold up, and then make your choice"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you allow a bear troll shifter (notice how you picked the BEST comination there is to compare against) in your game, require that he be a total pacifist.

It works. Trust me. It'll be really interesting.

Oh Bear Who Walks Through Walls, how I adored thee.

Do you have the stats for him? I've seen you drop the name a few times. I'm assuming a bear shifter adept who punched through walls?

A Shapeshifter with a metahuman form gains the corresponding metatype abilities, but not the attributes. A bear shifter with Shift(Troll) has the +1 Armor, thermo vision and +1 Reach while in Troll form, but no attribute boosts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yes and no. Also yes and no.

I don't have his stats offhand, but I know where to get them.

And no, he didn't punch walls. He obliterated them.

His unarmed melee attack versus objects did, on average, 42P damage. Enough to break a 30 centimeter deep 1meter square hole in concrete. Assuming he only needed a 1 meter square hole to walk through, he could dig through concrete at a rate approaching the human walking speed.

He does have the attribute bosts, per RAW, those stats are for natural and shifted form.



WTF? How?

He has his BEAR attributes, he does not get the TROLL attributes. Please read the rules regarding metahuman shifters. They get the "metatype abilities" of their metahuman form, which if you check that chart, has a column politely labeled "ATTRIBUTES" and another one labeled "ABILITIES."



1) high natural strength
2) adept powers (more damage, even more damage, and extra damage vs. objects)
3) martial arts qualities

Shifters are one of the least poorly balanced things in Runner's Companion.

Indeed.

These numbers aren't really so high or so different than any other cybered / melee adept. Challenge shifters with guns - regeneration doesn't work so well if the character actually goes in to overflow.

Also, being dual-natured, they're extremely vulnerable to attacks from the astral. Astral combat can be nasty if you aren't prepared for it. And if the character isn't able to defend themselves from astral spells, that's also a big disadvantage.

If anything, Tiger/Lion shifters are far more OP than Bear Shifters, IMO. They get Body, Strength, and most importantly, Agility boosts, cost less, and make for far more deadly foes. I made a Tiger Guy and a Bear Guy, and the Tiger Guy was a lot scarier. I even considered swapping their costs. (Bear was the better 'soak tank' at least, though Tiger had more Reaction, which is also important for avoiding damage. In fact, it's very important for AVOIDING damage. Body helps the soak. Tigers have a 7 max reaction vs. a 5, and still get a Body boost on TOP of that. Oh yeah, they get a lot less penalties. Tigers are, pound for pound, more powerful than Bears in every way the way these stats work. Bears are just Stronger and Tougher and that's it, but the fact Tigers still get boosts to these stats and THEN bonuses to stuff like Agility and Reaction with less overall penalties? And they cost LESS?)

And yes, I'll echo-stats do NOT stack. So a Bear Shifter with Shift Troll would still ONLY have his bear stats. My Bear shifter has shift elf, and he doesn't get any Agility boosts-he sits at the whopping 4 that Bear shifters get. He hits hard as hell, but his combat dice aren't as scary as the other Tiger fellow I whipped up to compare(who had a general human form.)

That being said, IMO, shifter damage or attributes aren't what totally set them off, it's their passive regeneration. Attributes? I've gotten worse with cybered characters, bio adepts, and the like. Much worse. If Shifters didn't have regeneration, they'd be arguably considerably underpowered, IMO.

I would allow shifters with the following modification in regards to metahumanity. A shapeshifter who tries to mimic metahumanity would have the same attributes as the metatype they 'mimic'. After all, magic is already involved so we might as well make them a bit more flexible.

You pay first for the shapeshifter and then also for the race.

So a Troll Bear shapeshifter would cost 80+40 points and gain the abilities and bonuses from the Troll metatype - making it a very big, bad bear. Note, the racial bonuses AND negatives would apply so a troll bear would also be uglier than a regular bear as their charisma would be penalized by being a troll metatype bear shifter.

Unfortunately for these shifters they would also have the drawback of not being able to conceal themselves fully as animals as their metatype traits tends to shine through. A bear troll shapeshifter would be even larger than a regular bear and also have dermal plating deposits on its body and most likely horns.

A Night Elf jaguar might have elongated ears and be slimmer than a regular jaguar.

Would it be overpowered, I do not know - it would surely be expensive but on the other hand they would not be able to branch out into full fledged magicians as easily or adepts from gamestart.

Not to mention...how scary is a Troll metatype bear shifter in human form?

On the subject of Regeneration.

I would like to change those rules so that it is a gradual healing over time and not BANG! im healed. Perhaps Max boxes healed equal to Edge per combat turn or so.

So, in other words, the same cost as it is now but with even more bonuses?

(It already costs 120 BP to be a troll-bearshifter, FYI)

Well, it costs 10 points less (Metatype cost 40-10 +80 for a bear shapeshifter)

Yes, they would be more powerful but their metatype attributes would also be impacted by the negative attributes from the animal form. That is, you would get the racial bonuses from the troll form which would improve the bear form but the bear would also have the negative impacts from troll metatype (charisma and intelligence) where the negative impacts are greater than the bears natural atributes.

An Elf bear shifter would be a rather buffed elf but is a lot slower. You essentially lower the attributes in both forms where they have a negative attribute impact (The bear have a -2 to their normal agility of 1/4(6) against the elfs 2/7(10) which gives the elf form a maximum of 1/5((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) instead, but the bear gains a charisma bonus of +2 from 1/6 to 3/8. The elf metatype form would gain a body bonus from bear form making him very buff but lower his intuition, logic, willpower and reaction to 1/5 instead.

Their attributes becomes a hybrid of both bear and metatype

Ok, that might have sounded bad, did it make sense? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

I understand it, what I'm saying is, it'd be less balanced.

Indeed.
Troll Bear Shifter, under your rules:
11/17 body | 1/3 agi | 1/5 rea | 11/17 str | 1/4 cha | 1/4 int | 1/4 log | 1/5 wil

Those look mighy nice... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Shapeshifters work fine as PCs, I think - as long as you remember that they are animals, and roleplay them accordingly.

Their biggest drawback is their innate bestial nature and the problems this will cause in metahuman society. They have no understanding of metahuman laws, social conventions, and the like unless they acquire the approperiate social and knowledge skills - and even then, the metahuman way of doing things won't be their first instinct.

KE Cop approaches one and says "Have a good day," smiling.
Bear-troll shifter bathes in his blood.

Shifters are fine. Just remember that Silver weapons get a whopping +6 DV against them that they can't regen.

The main component of this hilarity is Shattering Blow, the adept power.

One thing to remember is that regeneration is not omni-powerful even without allergies coming into play. Mundanes can bypass it with a called shot (aiming for the head or spinal areas that don't regenerate - assuming they know this), and regeneration does not work at all against magical damage. And it is relatively easy to finish you off if you get put down - regeneration works best in conjunction with a tank build who will only take a few boxes of damage, then heal them almost as quickly.