Hello everyone, I'm and old SR GM, and some may remember me from before on these forums.

We have started a new game, this time using SR4A rules. Now after forgetting my old house rules and the erratas I'm looking at the SR4 anniversary book, where I suppose the old errata has been applied to.

Flechette: It says it gives +5 to the targets Impact armor, but both the Viper Slivergun is listed with +2 (metal slivers that count as flechette), as is the Remington 990s shotgun (w standard flechette ammo), while the Remington Roomsweeper w/flechettes (actually said to be buckshot) has +5AP. Now are these different ammunition types or are there not? If they were consistently wrong (as in copy paste from SR4) I could understand it, but this is confusing.

There are no rules which weapons can use which type of ammunition, so I'm assuming everything can use everything unless specifically noted (some can use only x). With that in mind, why would anyone ever buy a shotgun (remington 990) to fire the expensive and almost useless flechette ammo, when for example the Ruger 100 sporting rifle can do the job at much better range? Or why get the Mossberg CMDT when an assault rifle can fire flechette ammo full auto while retaining superior range, no extra recoil modifiers, and much better ammo capacity?

That's it for now.

1) The flechette differences are likely this: those weapons that specifically state they have those codes already integrate the flechette modifiers; to put it another way, they have the +2 AP despite firing flechette, because they were designed to.

2) Correct, you can use any ammo with any weapon, unless explicitly told differently (with some exceptions - assault rifles can't shoot taser ammo, and light pistols can't shoot assault cannon rounds, for example).

3A) Because shotguns firing flechette can modify the choke of the weapon (SR4A, page 154-155), potentially doing more damage or hitting more targets.
3B) Again, because of the choke rules for shotguns. Also, the modified damage of the Mossberg is greater than an assault rifle with flechette (although the AR has slightly better AP..).

Thanks for the quick reply.

1. Ok, that was one of my theories. It almost holds too, for guns like the Slivergun. But what makes the Remington 990 (shotgun) more designed to fire flechettes, than the Mossberg CMDT (also shotgun)? I don't mind a rule saying shotguns get +2 AP for flechette (more if adjusting choke) since they are designed to fire them, as long as they are consistent. Shotguns even use a different skill for some reason, despite ammunition used. I loved shotguns in 3rd edition, but have not really found a good use for them in this one.

2. OK.

3. Adjusting choke means doing less damage, having less penetration, in return for making it slightly harder to dodge and a possibility of hitting 2 targets. AFAIK you can't up the damage in any way above standard choke. The Mossberg DOES have higher damage, but the extra recoil and lack of accessories. Sure, the Ares Alpha cost 700 more, but has 4 times the ammo capability (important when firing bursts), free recoil, better range, better penetration (offset by the Mossbergs higher damage), free smartgun, grenade launcher, uses the more versatile Automatics skill, and most importantly: Can fire all the other basic ammunition types! Looks to be there is no good reason to get the Mossberg.

I thought this was an old typo that got fixed? You can come up with handwaves for it (Neraph's point #1), but otherwise it (and anything else) should have 'normal weapon class stats modified by normal flechette stats'.

The slightly less interesting but also more sane explanation. How it got past the playtest etc. is beyond me, these errors have been in several different prints. Is it specifically stated in an errata or faq somewhere?

Personally, I'm fine with certain guns (e.g., the Viper) having some edge. Not necessarily the printed stats, but something. The Viper doesn't 'really' shoot flechette ammo. It shoots silvergun slivers, which are seen as 'effectively' flechette ammo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They're actually more like individual metal darts. That's why they have no spread, etc.

I'm okay with this *specific* thing having a better AP than flechette ammo. Flechette ammo is available to all guns, and is basically a shotgun shell filled with many tiny metal darts/shards. It makes sense for a single dart to pierce better.

This is a recurrent topic among SR players, because it has it all: optimization confusion ('why bother with X?'), rules typos, RL-confusion ('flechette are supposed to be armor-*piercing*!'), and balance issues ('Viper is the best!'—it was better in SR3). One issue is that SR4 has no real distinction between 'hard' and 'soft' armor, and flechette ammo is (RL) supposed to pierce soft armor (and not hard). This is slightly modeled by going against Impact armor.

Personally, I think a better solution might be to have no (or less) DV bonus, but a better AP bonus. In that case, the slivergun is not stronger against unarmored, but it's better than a 9mm against kevlar (or whatever). This is an easy house rule, requiring you to just say that the silvergun is NOT 'flechette ammo'.

For flechette ammo, I think the current rules make sense: deals meaner wounds, but at an AP penalty. Non-flechette shotgun shells don't exist in SR4, because (I assume?) they'd have worse range, damage, and AP.

Explain.

Yeah. The Slivergun is probably based off Molly's Needler from Neuromancer etc., which makes it quite different from a shotgun with no indication of having bad penetration per se. There is something called buckshot in SR4, but it is not listed in the equipment list unless it is called "regular ammo." The combat chapter says you can use Shot, but it is less effective against armor, and then says to apply Flechette ammunition rules to the damage done by shot rounds. Now why would it say so if buckshot IS flechette?

Treating buckshot as regular ammo for price and availability makes sense for shotguns, and actually gives them some purpose.



Shotguns use the Longarms skill. There are generally more weapons available that uses the Automatics skill, including those that can be concealed. Never mind the part about ammunition, not sure what I meant there.

I assume he means that shotguns require the Longarms skill while pistols firing shotgun ammunition require the Pistols skill.

It does imply that ammunition is not the deciding factor.

Why not just use slug rounds with shotguns?

Because Rifles have better range. Not to mention sniper rifles....

Ammo has never been the deciding factor; I don't understand the question.

AFAIK, buckshot doesn't exist in SR. If there's something that 'functions as flechette' and flechette is listed as 'shells full of metal silvers', then why not just admit that shotguns all fire flechette 'shot'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Either way, it hardly matters. The point is that shotguns have choke, and nothing else does. Yes, automatics are great and shotguns(/longarms in general) are typically less great. The gun categories aren't balanced?! That's certainly not news, hehe. The game is full of less-good choices.

Gunnery. Put a weapon mount on a Ferret and carry whatever gun you want with the ferret hanging off the bottom and enjoy your no recoil. All other weapons are less-good choices.

That is… a thing that someone could say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (That was the best thing I could muster to say about it!)

In our games, shotgun shells have the price and availability of normal Ammo. They are shotguns. They fire little plastic tubes filled with metal balls. Those are cheap, and available at Kong-Walmart, for shooting at pigeons (Pigeons are not known for wearing armor but are agile little buggers). You can also get the slugs, in case you want to absolutely pulverize a deer in a lined coat.

Specialized flechette rounds for pistols? Pricey and harder to get.

The Arsenal errata 1.3.2 file does state the Ares Viper Slivergun, Remington Roomsweeper, and Remington 990 (and a few others) are +5 AP, and not +2. The way it's written does seem that all flechette ammo, regardless of the weapon itself, is now +5 across the board. My soft copy does say the Slivergun is +2 AP, and I take this as a typo.

Also, in SR4a, page 154, shotgun [buck]shot rounds use the flechette ammo rules.

What is this playtest thing you refer to? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) And I'm not kidding. Pretty much there has been no playtesting done with SR4. What little there was done was pretty much totally ignored by the developer and writers for some reason. I'm not sure there ever was effective playtesting of SR in any edition. I know FASA did some playesting for some games (I did some way back when) but I don't know if SR was one of them. And I saw Jordan rewrite the rules of games after playtesting had been completed because he felt like it.

The gun rules in SR are pretty messed up in multiple places, but are still usable.

If the shotgun base stats are DV 7 AP -1, then why does the Remington have DV 9(pf) AP +5 with Flechette? Or is it just a worse shotgun?

Same with the Slivergun, should it have AP+4 because of heavy pistol -1 base AP?

This. And my German hardcopy (which for some reason I trust more that CGL's stuff when it comes to errata...) has the Slivergun listed as +5 AP

Apparently you ignore the base AP (maybe it's only for slug-type ammo). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nope.
Sliverguns stats have nothink to do with other heave pistols, or did you completely miss that it also gets +3 to damage for only firing "flechette" ammo.

Heh, acually there are rule(s) to support this.
As in the arsenal the note for AV ammo says it has AP -4 against people, -6 against vehicles and barriers.
Where as the note for AV assault cannon rounds says they have an additional AP of -1 against people, -3 against vehicles

For all we know, that's another typo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just kidding, though the silvergun stats have always been kinda BS. It should have some unique benefits, but it also should have drawbacks (beyond costing a measly +250¥). I mean, christ, vs. the SR4A guns: double-size magazine, the sole BF option, *same* Avail/Legal (despite free suppressor!), and magic +3DV/+3AP 'flechette' ammo? I feel like it was even better in SR3, even. Look how much the Fubuki costs compared to its peers, for the much smaller list of benefits of narrow-only BF and a slightly larger mag.

If I was living in-game, my only question would be 'where's my SMG and AR-size sliverguns!?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nothing is apparent in SR (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It seems to me they made a mistake, just as they did in the first SR4 print with shotguns, slivergun etc... basically anything listed with special ammo. The rules on the ammo itself was clear, that you add the base AP value of the weapon to the AP value of the ammo.



I noticed it's damage yes. It still struggles to penetrate much with +5 AP, which means it is either a decent stun gun (normal rules) or simply bad (my rules).

On 3 net hits (not too shabby one would think) it fails to penetrate an armor vest, some of the lightest armor in use by security guards etc.

Maybe it just remains a niche weapon that is awesome against unarmored opponents and fairly weak against anything else. Spirits will laugh at the damage of course.

Whut, it needs exactly 2 net hits to do physical damage to someone wearing an armor vest:
4+5= 9 armor and 8+2=10 damage

And also only targets you need(or really even want to most of the time) to do physical damage are those that are immune to stun damage and really i would prefer not to use a heavy pistol of anykind against those.